Red Bull RB6

[hollus]

I am a bit lost with all the discussions based on the car scrapping the ground. The car scrapes the track only when the downforce is high, or I would think so. If the suspension deals with downforces in the order of 1000 or 2000Kg, I fail to see how 160Kg of fuel can make much difference while the car is stationary or slow.
Am I completely missing the point?

[Shaddock]

Let me get this straight, your saying that some time between the end of the qualifying lap, and entering the pits the cars height changes (rises)?

POST QUALIFYING PARC FERMÉ rules.

34.1 - 'compressed gases may be drained or added'

Wasn't this intended for the engines when it was written.

[JohnsonEvilTwin]

RH1300S

Thanks for that, I was on the FIA site for ages and could find NOTHING specific to the rideheight.
Someone quoted it earlier in the thread.
I did read the regassing but couldnt see how that was specific to ride height.
In the end i think this goes some way to showing how vague some of the FIA rules are.....

[JohnsonEvilTwin]

160kgs of mass it may be, but braking from 180mph to 50 in the space of 100meters, the extra weight makes an incredible differnce. 5 seconds a lap estamted.

Segendum

I can see one picture of a Red Bull in the gravel trap, thats not really indicative of a "high" red bull is it?
James Allen has said you can regass dampers between qualifying and the race while under Parc Ferme rules.
This follows what RHS1300 has posted too.
This means the dampers must be mass bearing, otherwise how else do they adjust so efficiently?

Red Bull have found a loophole with the "re-gassing" in my opinion, the byproduct of which is a variable rideheight. This is still not fully legal.
Varible ridheight is expressly NOT permitted in F1

[Intego]

This is Vettel driving in the pit lane/parc fermé (from 0:45 on):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5beaisJcLM[/youtube]

If RB changed car height then while driving. Maybe the suggested heat from exhausts. On the other side it seems that the RB6 [EDIT: spelling mistake] is low only on straights which could be the simple result of downforce.

[Belatti]

I dont think that changing the gas pressure may be possible, as it changes the force vs. displacement curve of the damper.

Besides, the ride height is set by the springs, not by the dampers. You can even quit the dampers and the car will still have the same static ride height.

Now, in some cars the springs are mounted between a "rigid" part of the chasis (or gearboxes in an F1) and a rocker arm-push rod. So do the dampers: they are in parallel.

Watching for a while the coilover shock-spring mounting of the cars I work with (I know F1 uses tosion bars and not coil springs, but follow my line of thinking...) I started to think that if you find a way to build a gas chamber so close that it confuses to the dampers chamber and let the spring rest in it, you can control that gas "pillow" height adjunsting pressure... EUREKA!

It only would need to be refilled after Qualy and using a precise controlled bleed, it can be automatically deflated during the race. Or even if you want to avoid the refilling, you can build 2 chambers and find a way to brake the membrane between both after qualy... there are infinite possibilities to achive the same.

It only needs sofistication, something F1 has in big amounts

[Belatti]

On the other side it seems that the RB6 ist low only on straights which could be the simple result of downforce.

ehhemm... Renault engine :-"

[RacingManiac]

Belatti, I am actually thinking along that line, with the through rod damper maybe you can have an adjustable "bump stop" on the other end of the rod. Though I think it'd have to be somehow done hydraulically since with air the pressure needs to be close to 4000psi on a 14mm rod on the 3rd damper to support the car weight(assuming 1:1 motion ratio)....

[segedunum]

I can see one picture of a Red Bull in the gravel trap, thats not really indicative of a "high" red bull is it?

There are other pictures of the Red Bull in parc ferme further back. The gravel trap one is useless, so I don't know why you're looking at that. Take a look at that video above as well. There's a noticeable amount of daylight on his slowing down lap under the car, and it's as much daylight as you see on any other car pulling into parc ferme. Either the car has ended up being raised or they don't have any system that lowers ride height at all.

Varible ridheight is expressly NOT permitted in F1

Like I've said umpteen times - prove it. There needs to be a regulation check and measurement to enforce a rule. The only time you can measure ride height is when the car is stationary and the only way of controlling the ride height of the car while moving is via the plank. There are too many variables to effectively control while the car is on track, and the ride height is obviously moving all the time on track - unless you have an unsprung chassis.

[wesley123]

Varible ridheight is expressly NOT permitted in F1

What do you state under variable ride height? When i think of that i think an ride height that changes when driving in the case you say we can state that every car is illegal as under braking, speed etc. the ride height is different.

The car lowers it selve in a pit stop, that is the moment when it is allowed, it is after the parc ferme-race start, so thus you can change everything on the car if you want, so then lowering the car is legal to do.

[segedunum]

ehhemm... Renault engine :-"

I don't think the Renault makes that much difference. Renault themselves were running at a reasonable straight line speed, especially in Bahrain, and by all accounts they were just slightly down on power versus Mercedes last year. They've just got a lot of downforce on that car that hasn't helped their straight line speed much.

[Blackout]

On the other side it seems that the RB6 ist low only on straights which could be the simple result of downforce.

ehhemm... Renault engine :-"

[Intego]

On the other side it seems that the RB6 is low only on straights which could be the simple result of downforce.

ehhemm... Renault engine :-"

Sorry, but nobody spoke of top speed. Of course I meant a low ride height.

[Blackout]

ehhemm... Renault engine :-"

I don't think the Renault makes that much difference. Renault themselves were running at a reasonable straight line speed, especially in Bahrain, and by all accounts they were just slightly down on power versus Mercedes last year. They've just got a lot of downforce on that car that hasn't helped their straight line speed much.

reasonable straight line speed ? the second best top speed.

[bonjon1979]

I am a bit lost with all the discussions based on the car scrapping the ground. The car scrapes the track only when the downforce is high, or I would think so. If the suspension deals with downforces in the order of 1000 or 2000Kg, I fail to see how 160Kg of fuel can make much difference while the car is stationary or slow.
Am I completely missing the point?

No, you're making a really good point actually.

I guess though that the cars go for as low a ride height as possible so that when their car is producing the most downforce the plank is just scraping on the floor. You never hear it scraping in low speed stuff, only at high speed. If the car is already scraping the ground with no fuel in it when at high speed - when it has 160kg in it at high speed it should be bottoming out even more. For whatever reason, the Red bull doesn't seem to be doing that.