Ferrari F2012

[donskar]

I agree with Crucial -- and said the same earlier. If the 2013 is closely patterned on the 2012, then it,too, will be limited.

[ten_marco]

Disagree with Crucial.
The F2012 not reached its real development, for the simple reason that the technical part of the Ferrari was unable to do so. Since July, the development of the car is compromised. While stirred it into the mirrors and other small parts like front and rear wing, the RBR and Mclaren practically built another car. In the case of RBR, they remade again the car back in Singapore, colcocaram DDRS, front wing can generate more downforce, nose Lotus style, flexible wing and diffuser, and tired of not improving the exhausts.
Ferrari, as part of the engineers is much more limited, and not merely when it was necessary to innovate.

[Cam]

Disagree with Crucial.
The F2012 not reached its real development, for the simple reason that the technical part of the Ferrari was unable to do so. Since July, the development of the car is compromised. While stirred it into the mirrors and other small parts like front and rear wing, the RBR and Mclaren practically built another car. In the case of RBR, they remade again the car back in Singapore, colcocaram DDRS, front wing can generate more downforce, nose Lotus style, flexible wing and diffuser, and tired of not improving the exhausts.
Ferrari, as part of the engineers is much more limited, and not merely when it was necessary to innovate.

Actually Crucial is more right, however you have a point. The F2012 did not have any DDRS, vents, tunnels, ramps etc, so in this context, sure, the F2012 has scope to include these, however, the car was not built to accept these, so essentially a full re-design is in order to make it happen, which is what Crucial is alluding too IMO. There's not much you can add to the F2012 to make it a rocket - as was plainly obvious.

Ferrari have some serious thinking to do and I fear 2013 will be second verse, same as the first.

Edit: 'tunnels'

[bhall]

Disagree with Crucial.
The F2012 not reached its real development, for the simple reason that the technical part of the Ferrari was unable to do so. Since July, the development of the car is compromised. While stirred it into the mirrors and other small parts like front and rear wing, the RBR and Mclaren practically built another car. In the case of RBR, they remade again the car back in Singapore, colcocaram DDRS, front wing can generate more downforce, nose Lotus style, flexible wing and diffuser, and tired of not improving the exhausts.
Ferrari, as part of the engineers is much more limited, and not merely when it was necessary to innovate.

Indeed. There's no telling how many blind alleys and dead-ends the team were induced to explore by faulty "wind tunnel" data, a problem that compounds itself as a car gets further and further away from the drawing board. Even solutions that initially appear to "work" can ultimately be wrong if implementing them closes off other areas of potential gains down the line.

As a concept, I think the F2012 was sound. The problem is that the concept was executed in the dark. The trick for next year's car will be discerning the difference between the pieces to keep and those that should be drawn, quartered, burned, and buried.

[Sevach]

Crutial I'm gonna fight u on this one and to a certain degree, I think what we're saying is very similar but expressed differently. I really don't like the term that they've "reached the development ceiling of the F2012". Primarily cause the F2012 becomes the F2013 and therefore implies the F2013 will never get quicker than the F2012 was. Also, Silverstone was June!!!! Man, they could have made a major change but they didn't get that they would have major problems getting much more speed out of the car. I think they're still searching.

Ferrari might have rested on their laurels bit after turning a tractor into a legitimate challenger, yes.

The kind of upgrades you are talking about can't be spawned on a whim, which means immeditely after they got their B version car working, they needed to start work on a third huge upgrade be it sidepods, floor... something that dramatically improved the car performance.
Things like the late season rear wing were always going to be "let's find one tenth here (and only for qualy)".

[aral]

In reality, even though next years car will be an evolution, the only unchanged parts would be the tub and engine/gearbox. Anything else attached to these can be modified and moved around. The car could look and perform entirely differently.

[Ferraripilot]

In reality, even though next years car will be an evolution, the only unchanged parts would be the tub and engine/gearbox. Anything else attached to these can be modified and moved around. The car could look and perform entirely differently.

Do we know F2013 will be an evolution of F2012? F2012 seems to have a very specific requirement for venting within their sidepods due to their quite different radiator arrangement. If Ferrari were to evolve anything, I believe it should be change the internal flow dynamic of those sidepods to yield better exterior sidepod laminar flow.

[medeni73]

Well the problematic tunnel is closed and they will use Toyota tunnel for next couple of years so there are no more excuses of faulty tunnel-data except they are reading those data wrong...

[Cam]

Wouldn't it now also mean that Ferrari will have re-zero (is that even a word?) everything they've done. Sure, now they're at a new wind tunnel, but all their info has to be calibrated to this tunnel - won't that take time?

[Gerhard Berger]

In reality, even though next years car will be an evolution, the only unchanged parts would be the tub and engine/gearbox. Anything else attached to these can be modified and moved around. The car could look and perform entirely differently.

Do we know F2013 will be an evolution of F2012? F2012 seems to have a very specific requirement for venting within their sidepods due to their quite different radiator arrangement. If Ferrari were to evolve anything, I believe it should be change the internal flow dynamic of those sidepods to yield better exterior sidepod laminar flow.

You would assume it would be an evolution. If they want to get more air to the rear wing and diffuser, then yeah it looks like they will have to narrow/lower the sidepods which will require redesign of the cooling system.

[Plutus]

I don't see why Ferrari rely on the wind tunnel in Cologne which belonged to Toyota. This method is unproductive and expensive at the same time.
They need to get their act together, maybe rebuild their current wind tunnel in Maranello but this way, I don't see them winning any championships over next couple of years.

[Bomber_Pilot]

I don't see why Ferrari rely on the wind tunnel in Cologne which belonged to Toyota. This method is unproductive and expensive at the same time.
They need to get their act together, maybe rebuild their current wind tunnel in Maranello but this way, I don't see them winning any championships over next couple of years.

That is what they are doing. They had to shut down their own wt to rebuild and upgrade it and that takes time. That is why they are using the Toyota wt.

[wesley123]

I don't see why Ferrari rely on the wind tunnel in Cologne which belonged to Toyota. This method is unproductive and expensive at the same time.
They need to get their act together, maybe rebuild their current wind tunnel in Maranello but this way, I don't see them winning any championships over next couple of years.

Maybe you should check some facts;

1. They use the Toyota WT(which is one of the best in the industry btw) because their own WT is crap and needed the upgrade
2. They still use the Toyota WT because their own is being upgraded.
3. They will return to their own when it is finished.

So what you are saying is that they are better off using a wind tunnel that doesnt even work correctly? Sure they will win world titles with that. Even if the Ferrari WT worked correctly, the Toyota WT would be of much better quality anyways.

[Forza Ferrari]

I do think plutus is just a troll.
Anyway, even when the WT upgrade is done, it's possible Ferrari continue to use this tool, cause it's common for big teams to work simultaneously on several tunnels.

Remember the brawn gp? reports said they were using 4 tunnels at the same time !

[Plutus]

I don't see why Ferrari rely on the wind tunnel in Cologne which belonged to Toyota. This method is unproductive and expensive at the same time.
They need to get their act together, maybe rebuild their current wind tunnel in Maranello but this way, I don't see them winning any championships over next couple of years.

Maybe you should check some facts;

1. They use the Toyota WT(which is one of the best in the industry btw) because their own WT is crap and needed the upgrade
2. They still use the Toyota WT because their own is being upgraded.
3. They will return to their own when it is finished.

So what you are saying is that they are better off using a wind tunnel that doesnt even work correctly? Sure they will win world titles with that. Even if the Ferrari WT worked correctly, the Toyota WT would be of much better quality anyways.

No, I think there was a misunderstanding here, I didn't explain myself well enough, I guess.
That is what, I meant, they need to upgrade their WT and make in function the way the Toyota one does. They have had the issues with the WT for the past three years, well certainly last year.
If they get their WT working they have the potential to match Red Bull in terms of upgrades and keep up with them and give Alonso and Massa a real chance for the title, there's only so much a driver can do within the limits of the car and Alonso maximized the Ferrari's potential this year.

I guess, it can be useful using two at the same time, to compare data but with one not functioning properly it is just a hinderance.

I do think plutus is just a troll.

Made me chuckle.
I would like to know, how you came up with that judging that post.