Heidfeld's a gonner... Here comes Senna

[dren]

Petrov has come a long way from last year. He has flown under the radar so far this year.

[ringo]

anyone thinking Senna will be eye to eye with petrov this weekend ?
anyone thinking Grosjean will be the one to beat petrov after Monza ?
Hopefully petrov can bag a few more points...but their season is dead now methinks.

Petrov whoops Mercedes ass from now on.
You heard it here first!!

Renault is back in the game playboy !!

At least i hope the upgrades put them back.

[ringo]

I'd say Senna would have to be within half a second of Petrov. I have doubts about his ultimate speed.

Senna will finish races for sure. Maybe not the faster than petrov, but i think 1 year in the HRT is worht a lot of experience when it comes to avoiding trouble on the track and bring a car home.

[marcush.]

I have to admit I have witnessed Senna only two times as a direct competitor back in2007.His speed compared to the opponents was very good ,but then he was testing the car in Silverstone extensively -familiarising that is- You could clearly see he was above average in terms of talent but I was less than impressed with his pitstops (mandatory stops of x seconds absolutely no touching of car .
We gained massive time on him with both cars and he did throw away 3 or 4 seconds if I remember correctly in both races.Back then i did interpret this as not taking things seriously at all ..he was happy to be the quickest guy on track ,basta.
If memory serves me right the second heat was not that clear cut for him and some crazy Italien (giacomo pichini) and championship stalward Ange Barde were really hard at his heals and pressurising him till the finish...
One would expect that a newcomer would gain momentum over the weekend ...but he seemed already finished with it when the weekend started ...and faded towards the end- but maybe it was the Pirelli tyre he was not familiar with.

[jamsbong]

Here is some stats to backup my claim that Heidfeld is a great overtaker.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/08/i ... rand-prix/

Goto the last bit of the article where James Allen analyses the number of overtaking. Obviously, someone like Hamilton is in a great car and will NOT need to overtake as frequently so the numbers aren't useful for presenting overtaking capability for the top runners.

However, for the mid-pack, these numbers really stand out. You can see clearly that Heidfeld is on par with Kobayashi (the famous young gun overtaker). If one bothers to do the same stats of other races of Heidfeld, I'm sure you'll find he is very good with overtaking.

[raymondu999]

Or, as some people brought up a while back (myself included); it could mean he's a bad overtaker. For example. If he qualified 15th and finished 10th. If he got that through pace, and not some guy ahead of him messing up on strategy, or reliability, that means he was genuinely quick enough to be 10th in the race. So why was he not quick enough to be 10th in qualifying?

[jamsbong]

Raymond, I think you're confused between two different skills. I only said Heidfeld is a great overtaker. I never said he is fast. Examples of bad overtakers are drivers like Massa, Rosberg and almost everyone else and you can tell how bad they are. because they would get held up for lap after lap after lap.
Heidfeld lacks natural speed, which is normally why he is not as a good as his team mate. Schumacher is also fantastic in overtaking, at the start of race he seems to just swim pass everyone.

To overtake someone does not mean you're fast. It just means you can break your opponent's defence. To be fast requires a totally different skill.

[bill shoe]

1. What the f*ck is the FIA contract recognition board for? What are they doing?

2. It obviously comes down to money and I understand that. However, the whole thing is very awkwardly executed by Renault. Renualt's willingness to tolerate this very awkward execution suggests that the need for money is quite severe.

3. Adam Cooper says that Heidfeld is at Spa in Renault team gear. This legally ticks a box for Heidfeld, but it's remarkably awkward for the team. Does he still hang out in the garage with the team? Do they ignore him? The sillyness of it must be painful for the team bosses who strive to create a image of seriousness and calm control.

4. I don't fault Renault for staying solvent (at least for now), and Heidfeld hasn't impressed me this season. However, I still support Heidfeld in this matter. I belive in the rule of law, and my best guess is that Renault is crudely trampling the rule of law in their quest for funding.

5. I hope this proud team is not about to go out of business. This team (in its Toleman days) actually gave Ayrton his first F1 drive, and the team has much good history. Is current management bad, or is this the reality of midfield existence during a worlwide recession?

[raymondu999]

But does his contract say he will drive 19 races? Or just that he is a Renault employee? That's a part that I think we'll never know

[Fil]

But does his contract say he will drive 19 races? Or just that he is a Renault employee? That's a part that I think we'll never know

The only real insight into this detail is that Heidfeld was publicly aware that he held the racing seat in 2011 until Kubica returned.

If the wording specifically mentions Kubica, then this could be the point that is now with the courts. Usually the driver would accept some sort of financial payout and be gone.


Clearly Heidfeld wants the race seat, not the money.
Equally clearly, Renault is thinking about the future, not this season.


Whether it is about money, or about testing Senna (and later Grosjean) for a 2012 seat is a point of conjecture. I'd say it's probably both.


Heidfeld's stance is incredibly short-sighted. In taking a team to court, it'll severely hamper other team principals' confidence in signing him for 2012. Or maybe he realises this is his last chance at driving in F1, and doesn't want his career to end this way..

[ringo]

Raymond, I think you're confused between two different skills. I only said Heidfeld is a great overtaker. I never said he is fast. Examples of bad overtakers are drivers like Massa, Rosberg and almost everyone else and you can tell how bad they are. because they would get held up for lap after lap after lap.
Heidfeld lacks natural speed, which is normally why he is not as a good as his team mate. Schumacher is also fantastic in overtaking, at the start of race he seems to just swim pass everyone.

To overtake someone does not mean you're fast. It just means you can break your opponent's defence. To be fast requires a totally different skill.

He's a good overtaker, but after watching him from the begining of his F1 career, it never ever crossed my mind to compare him to Hamilton.
I think he's better than Button and the other guys at overtaking alone. In fact he's better than Kubica at overtaking, but i wouldn't say he is Hamilton level of overtaking mastery and suspense.

[ringo]

1. What the f*ck is the FIA contract recognition board for? What are they doing?

2. It obviously comes down to money and I understand that. However, the whole thing is very awkwardly executed by Renault. Renualt's willingness to tolerate this very awkward execution suggests that the need for money is quite severe.

3. Adam Cooper says that Heidfeld is at Spa in Renault team gear. This legally ticks a box for Heidfeld, but it's remarkably awkward for the team. Does he still hang out in the garage with the team? Do they ignore him? The sillyness of it must be painful for the team bosses who strive to create a image of seriousness and calm control.

4. I don't fault Renault for staying solvent (at least for now), and Heidfeld hasn't impressed me this season. However, I still support Heidfeld in this matter. I belive in the rule of law, and my best guess is that Renault is crudely trampling the rule of law in their quest for funding.

5. I hope this proud team is not about to go out of business. This team (in its Toleman days) actually gave Ayrton his first F1 drive, and the team has much good history. Is current management bad, or is this the reality of midfield existence during a worlwide recession?

Though he has all the rights to be there. He's making himself look ugly and nasty by being there. Even if he shoe horned himself back in, it will be took awkward for him to work with the same team that strangled him in his sleep.

[jamsbong]

it never ever crossed my mind to compare him to Hamilton.
I think he's better than Button and the other guys at overtaking alone. In fact he's better than Kubica at overtaking, but i wouldn't say he is Hamilton level of overtaking mastery and suspense.

OK, I see where the problem is. You rate Hamilton very highly, where as I don't. That boy is too arrogant for his level of capability. To me, he is a truly lucky boy.

[raymondu999]

Right. I'm unsubscribing from this thread now. Whichever thread Ringo participates in and mentions Hamilton turns into a big "discussion" over Hamilton

[Lycoming]

seems silly to mention hamilton and only hamilton in a thread about bruno senna.

In any case, I'm surprised that they had not been running senna on fridays as often as, say, Force India has been doing with Hulkenberg. It was clear long ago that senna was #1 to take over if Heidfeld or Petrov caught the flu or something, and with the lack of testing they really should have gotten him in that car more. Heidfeld probably doesnt need the track time, and his usefulness in providing technical feedback has proven to be little help given their recent pace. Really does feel like a messy decision all around.