2015 Belgian Grand Prix - 21-23 August

[Phil]

I think drag is the biggest factor in determing Vmax assuming the engines are perhaps within 10% of each other on this curcuit... It all depends how close the engine are. Just look at the difference between with DRS / without DRS to see how much of a difference that makes on a circuit like Spa. That already is greater than the difference between Verstappens 341 and the closest other car. Besides, both RedBulls were more or less identical to the Mercs (Ricc: 334, Ham: 332).

[Blackout]

It certainly seems Renault are improving, but I wouldn't yet argue that they are on equal terms simply because they topped the speed trap under a yet unspecified condition.

No one said that. And we will see more representative gaps saturday.
But again, before Austria, even with skinny wings, no RBR or STR could integrate that top 10 once AFAIR. It's different since the 5th engine with new pistons etc came.

[FoxHound]

It certainly seems Renault are improving, but I wouldn't yet argue that they are on equal terms simply because they topped the speed trap under a yet unspecified condition.

No one said that. And we will see more representative gaps saturday.
But again, before Austria, even with skinny wings, no RBR or STR could integrate that top 10 once AFAIR. It's different since the 5th engine with new pistons etc came.

Again I agree, but the picture will be clearer after Q3. (fixed the quotes too.... )

I cannot recall a practice session with Renault doing as well as they have here, with the current PU's.
And it's at an "engine track".

[Phil]

It being an engine track doesn't mean power is the limiting factor to achieve a certain Vmax. It being an 'engine track' is more meant in regards to how long the drivers are at full throttle over the entire duration of a lap. How much power is actually the 'limiting' factor depends on how long the straight is and how close the engines are.

What I am seeing here, a Torro Rosso achieving the highest top speed, is no different than last year when Williams used to have a higher top-speed than the quicker [over a lap] Mercedes.


Anyway, @Blackout - you are right. I didn't mean to imply anyone is assuming the Renault are on equal terms power wise. So I think we agree the 341 is a nice sign, but not at all conclusive of anything. The only way a weaker engine is going to beat a more powerful one in a drag race is by less drag (assuming optimal gearing for both and that both had the same starting speed / corner exit speed etc / same stretch of road).

BTW: Those McLarens are still nowhere.

[Just_a_fan]

I would think it's a combination of both... Power and drag are equally important. With a car with less drag, you will also require less power to achieve the same Vmax than a car with more drag, but more power. That's why DRS (and slipstreaming) has such a huge effect on topspeed, despite power staying the same.

To keep things technical, power absorbed by drag increases with the cube of the velocity, so they must be doing a bit of both drag trimming and engine improving. No way it's all one or the other unless they've suddenly found a huge engine improvement. And if that's the case then someone at Renault has been asleep on the job for the last 6 months...

[godlameroso]

McLaren are fitting a new power unit to each car both today and tomorrow, so I doubt they are pushing very hard.

[FoxHound]

It being an engine track doesn't mean power is the limiting factor to achieve a certain Vmax. It being an 'engine track' is more meant in regards to how long the drivers are at full throttle over the entire duration of a lap. How much power is actually the 'limiting' factor depends on how long the straight is and how close the engines are.

What I am seeing here, a Torro Rosso achieving the highest top speed, is no different than last year when Williams used to have a higher top-speed than the quicker [over a lap] Mercedes.

Why could this not have been attained at Silverstone? Both share some very similar characteristics, but the end result was that of status quo.
Therefore, totally ignoring the Torro Rosso headline time, how is it that the other 3 Renault powered cars can attain equal to or better than top speeds than the Mercedes.
Wing angle is part of the speed package as we all know. So is gearing. But the predominant point here, is that previously we have not seen this kind of form from Renault powered machines in the turbo era.

If we compare Torro Rosso's and Red Bull's relative pace to Mercedes, from say Hungary which is a polar opposite to Spa....we see that the gap has closed considerably!
From a high DF chassis track to an engine track and the gap closes.

It's only FP1....I'll wait and see what final configs are made and times set before any outright conclusions can be meted out.

[FoxHound]

I would think it's a combination of both... Power and drag are equally important. With a car with less drag, you will also require less power to achieve the same Vmax than a car with more drag, but more power. That's why DRS (and slipstreaming) has such a huge effect on topspeed, despite power staying the same.

To keep things technical, power absorbed by drag increases with the cube of the velocity, so they must be doing a bit of both drag trimming and engine improving. No way it's all one or the other unless they've suddenly found a huge engine improvement. And if that's the case then someone at Renault has been asleep on the job for the last 6 months...

The precedent we saw was wholesale change to the engine at the start of the season. Pressured by Red Bull.
Renault admitted they allowed themselves to be pressurized into the situation. They also said they would only add things to the engine that went through the correct procedures rather than rushed through as was the case at the start of the year.

We had a last-minute engine development in which we bypassed our normal quality and test bench validation processes.
It was these changes that caused the problems in Melbourne, and it is what we are now focusing on at the factory prior to SepangWe were very aggressive because Red Bull wanted us to develop fiercely. Now we have to ask ourselves how we could forget our traditional methods. We have been manufacturing F1 engines for 37 years. We know what we need to do.

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/03/19/ ... -failings/

[Phil]

To keep things technical, power absorbed by drag increases with the cube of the velocity, so they must be doing a bit of both drag trimming and engine improving.

This is of course true. My point was rather that depending on how close these engines are in power, drag is probably the bigger factor (ignoring the length of the straight which also makes it a function of acceleration), the corner exit speed and how late the driver braked). It's not as if these cars are run with the goal of achieving the highest Vmax - they are run with the goal to give the best laptime over the entirety of the circuit. So it's always going to be difficult to look at one singular value (a topspeed) and derive anything conclusive from it, unless the difference is night and day.

The problem with FP1 'specs' is, is that even a gust of wind (or lack of) could potentially help achieve a significantly better topspeed. Then there is also the weight of the car to consider (how light was the car fueled; did that have an impact on corner exit speed? did the car also benefit from a slip stream situation?). It's not as if all Renault cars are suddenly topping the timesheets AND producing better lap times. It was Verstappen, running 7th, 1 second off the quickest time. Maybe they ran less drag on that specific lap? Maybe he compromised corner entry for a better run down the straight? Maybe, his car was just fueled lighter than the other cars?


Fox:

If we compare Torro Rosso's and Red Bull's relative pace to Mercedes, from say Hungary which is a polar opposite to Spa....we see that the gap has closed considerably!
From a high DF chassis track to an engine track and the gap closes.

IMO - different tracks, different compromises. And yes, I do think they have made improvements too. I'm seeing those improvements in the entirety of the lap, not because of the 341 however. But I'm hesitant to conclude much yet, it's only been FP1. I guess we can continue this discussion when we QF has passed and most cars have run under give or take identical circumstances (equally light, equal tire states etc).

[i70q7m7ghw]

Big blowout for Rosberg in P2, scary stuff.

[ChrisF1]

11 laps on the soft, 6 in that stint apparently (Autosport)

[Silent Storm]

I just hope Pirelli don't get conservative for the remaining races.

[Just_a_fan]

On the on board footage it looked like the inside shoulder coloured up as it came out of the corner. Looks like it suddenly blistered or picked up some debris.

Edit: Further footage shows failure started half a lap earlier!

[RicME85]

Bit odd how the nose came off the Sauber

[mikeerfol]

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