On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

[NathanOlder]

Damn some people are still so bitter about 2007.
And is there really any real proof and evidence that Mclaren favoured either driver ? I mean Alonso fans will have you believe that Mclaren slowed Alonso down to let Lewis win.

[hUirEYExbN]

....
The team that Alonso went back to was very different - no Dennis, no Whitmarsh.
....

Wasn't Dennis still the team principal when Alonso re-signed with McLaren? He left in 2016/17 IIRC.

Was there any other evidence of Alonso trying to blackmail the team, other than Dennis' account of it happening? I'm inclined to believe it happened as Dennis does not seem the sort to make that up.

[NathanOlder]

....
The team that Alonso went back to was very different - no Dennis, no Whitmarsh.
....

Wasn't Dennis still the team principal when Alonso re-signed with McLaren? He left in 2016/17 IIRC.

Was there any other evidence of Alonso trying to blackmail the team, other than Dennis' account of it happening? I'm inclined to believe it happened as Dennis does not seem the sort to make that up.

Was there any evidence that Alonso was sabotaged or slowed down by the team ? I'm actually asking as I dont remember anything being proven , I'm not saying it didnt happen.

[aMessageToCharlie]

....
The team that Alonso went back to was very different - no Dennis, no Whitmarsh.
....

Wasn't Dennis still the team principal when Alonso re-signed with McLaren? He left in 2016/17 IIRC.

Was there any other evidence of Alonso trying to blackmail the team, other than Dennis' account of it happening? I'm inclined to believe it happened as Dennis does not seem the sort to make that up.

Was there any evidence that Alonso was sabotaged or slowed down by the team ? I'm actually asking as I dont remember anything being proven , I'm not saying it didnt happen.

Did you actually read this thread before posting?

[Just_a_fan]

....
The team that Alonso went back to was very different - no Dennis, no Whitmarsh.
....

Wasn't Dennis still the team principal when Alonso re-signed with McLaren? He left in 2016/17 IIRC.

Was there any other evidence of Alonso trying to blackmail the team, other than Dennis' account of it happening? I'm inclined to believe it happened as Dennis does not seem the sort to make that up.

Dennis left the F1 team and handed it over to Whitmarsh in 2009 (?). He was still involved with the McLaren Group as a shareholder until he was effectively ousted by the other major shareholders in 2017. He wasn't involved with the F1 team in any way when Alonso joined for the second time.

[Just_a_fan]

....
The team that Alonso went back to was very different - no Dennis, no Whitmarsh.
....

Wasn't Dennis still the team principal when Alonso re-signed with McLaren? He left in 2016/17 IIRC.

Was there any other evidence of Alonso trying to blackmail the team, other than Dennis' account of it happening? I'm inclined to believe it happened as Dennis does not seem the sort to make that up.

Was there any evidence that Alonso was sabotaged or slowed down by the team ? I'm actually asking as I dont remember anything being proven , I'm not saying it didnt happen.

There wasn't sabotage or any silliness like that, but Dennis decided that Hamilton would be the team's focus after Hungary. But at that point Hamilton was leading the championship anyway and had been since the fourth/fifth race of the season. That was long before the falling out occurred. So the "the team helped Hamilton" line is a bit premature in the early season. Hamilton had been doing enough without the team supposedly aiding him over Alonso.

[NathanOlder]

Wasn't Dennis still the team principal when Alonso re-signed with McLaren? He left in 2016/17 IIRC.

Was there any other evidence of Alonso trying to blackmail the team, other than Dennis' account of it happening? I'm inclined to believe it happened as Dennis does not seem the sort to make that up.

Was there any evidence that Alonso was sabotaged or slowed down by the team ? I'm actually asking as I dont remember anything being proven , I'm not saying it didnt happen.

Did you actually read this thread before posting?

Yeah, I still dont see any real proof.
1- Alonso claimed he was being slowed down, he thought that, so FIA put someone in the garage, nothing ever come of it.
2- Andreas said Alonso had wrong tyre pressure , that never happens.
It does, its happened since, Teams make mistakes.

So theres no real proof that Mclaren slowed Alonso down on purpose. Just Alonso fans as the can't understand why Alosno didnt destroy Lewis. When Lewis fans just accept that both Alonso and Lewis are the best of their times.

[aMessageToCharlie]

Was there any evidence that Alonso was sabotaged or slowed down by the team ? I'm actually asking as I dont remember anything being proven , I'm not saying it didnt happen.

Did you actually read this thread before posting?

Yeah, I still dont see any real proof.
1- Alonso claimed he was being slowed down, he thought that, so FIA put someone in the garage, nothing ever come of it.
2- Andreas said Alonso had wrong tyre pressure , that never happens.
It does, its happened since, Teams make mistakes.

So theres no real proof that Mclaren slowed Alonso down on purpose. Just Alonso fans as the can't understand why Alosno didnt destroy Lewis. When Lewis fans just accept that both Alonso and Lewis are the best of their times.

You asked for evidence and Andres125sx posted plenty of evidence. Of course everybody is free to make up their own opinion based on these and their own personal biases.

[Just_a_fan]

Did you actually read this thread before posting?

Yeah, I still dont see any real proof.
1- Alonso claimed he was being slowed down, he thought that, so FIA put someone in the garage, nothing ever come of it.
2- Andreas said Alonso had wrong tyre pressure , that never happens.
It does, its happened since, Teams make mistakes.

So theres no real proof that Mclaren slowed Alonso down on purpose. Just Alonso fans as the can't understand why Alosno didnt destroy Lewis. When Lewis fans just accept that both Alonso and Lewis are the best of their times.

You asked for evidence and Andres125sx posted plenty of evidence. Of course everybody is free to make up their own opinion based on these and their own personal biases.

His "evidence":

But the most evident proof is Alonso signing in with Renault (midfielder at best) when he had a valid contract with best team for 2008. The only reason a driver as competitive as Alonso will step down from a winning team when he already have a contract is he´s 100% sure that team will never allow him to fight for the title.

He fell out with the team principal. They separated by mutual agreement because they couldn't work together. That's not proof that the team would sabotage him in future.

The obvious team orders to Kovalainen next season, even at the start of the season (something not even Ferrari do ever despite their fame) is another evident proof

Heikki didn't challenge Hamilton. What team orders were there at the start of the 2008 season?

A fourth proof is Ron Dennis paying Hamilton career since he was 12, so both himself and the team (who missed an english champion for too many years) were eager to see Lewis winning in their rookie year, what would have been a marketing bomb

That's no proof of anything. McLaren had sponsored Hamilton's early career just as lots of drivers are sponsored in their early careers. Do you really think they'd derail Alonso just for that reason?

A fifth would be FIA sending a marshal to McLaren garage to ensure there was nothing weird there

This was done because it was being suggested that Alonso's car was being messed around with. Which it wasn't.

A sixth was McLaren saying they did a mistake with Alonso tire pressures in one of the final key GPs, providing more pressure than needed and making Alonso car some tenths slower instantly. No F1 team make those mistakes

Really? No F1 team makes tyre pressure mistakes? Right. Never happened before or since. Total one off effecting only Alonso? Ok, got it.

So the "evidence" is pretty, er, thin.

[NathanOlder]

Yeah, I still dont see any real proof.
1- Alonso claimed he was being slowed down, he thought that, so FIA put someone in the garage, nothing ever come of it.
2- Andreas said Alonso had wrong tyre pressure , that never happens.
It does, its happened since, Teams make mistakes.

So theres no real proof that Mclaren slowed Alonso down on purpose. Just Alonso fans as the can't understand why Alosno didnt destroy Lewis. When Lewis fans just accept that both Alonso and Lewis are the best of their times.

You asked for evidence and Andres125sx posted plenty of evidence. Of course everybody is free to make up their own opinion based on these and their own personal biases.

His "evidence":

But the most evident proof is Alonso signing in with Renault (midfielder at best) when he had a valid contract with best team for 2008. The only reason a driver as competitive as Alonso will step down from a winning team when he already have a contract is he´s 100% sure that team will never allow him to fight for the title.

He fell out with the team principal. They separated by mutual agreement because they couldn't work together. That's not proof that the team would sabotage him in future.

The obvious team orders to Kovalainen next season, even at the start of the season (something not even Ferrari do ever despite their fame) is another evident proof

Heikki didn't challenge Hamilton. What team orders were there at the start of the 2008 season?

A fourth proof is Ron Dennis paying Hamilton career since he was 12, so both himself and the team (who missed an english champion for too many years) were eager to see Lewis winning in their rookie year, what would have been a marketing bomb

That's no proof of anything. McLaren had sponsored Hamilton's early career just as lots of drivers are sponsored in their early careers. Do you really think they'd derail Alonso just for that reason?

A fifth would be FIA sending a marshal to McLaren garage to ensure there was nothing weird there

This was done because it was being suggested that Alonso's car was being messed around with. Which it wasn't.

A sixth was McLaren saying they did a mistake with Alonso tire pressures in one of the final key GPs, providing more pressure than needed and making Alonso car some tenths slower instantly. No F1 team make those mistakes

Really? No F1 team makes tyre pressure mistakes? Right. Never happened before or since. Total one off effecting only Alonso? Ok, got it.

So the "evidence" is pretty, er, thin.

Thanks for that

[hUirEYExbN]

....
The team that Alonso went back to was very different - no Dennis, no Whitmarsh.
....

Wasn't Dennis still the team principal when Alonso re-signed with McLaren? He left in 2016/17 IIRC.

Was there any other evidence of Alonso trying to blackmail the team, other than Dennis' account of it happening? I'm inclined to believe it happened as Dennis does not seem the sort to make that up.

Dennis left the F1 team and handed it over to Whitmarsh in 2009 (?). He was still involved with the McLaren Group as a shareholder until he was effectively ousted by the other major shareholders in 2017. He wasn't involved with the F1 team in any way when Alonso joined for the second time.

Whitmarsh left McLaren in 2013ish.

[aMessageToCharlie]

You asked for evidence and Andres125sx posted plenty of evidence. Of course everybody is free to make up their own opinion based on these and their own personal biases.

His "evidence":

But the most evident proof is Alonso signing in with Renault (midfielder at best) when he had a valid contract with best team for 2008. The only reason a driver as competitive as Alonso will step down from a winning team when he already have a contract is he´s 100% sure that team will never allow him to fight for the title.

He fell out with the team principal. They separated by mutual agreement because they couldn't work together. That's not proof that the team would sabotage him in future.

The obvious team orders to Kovalainen next season, even at the start of the season (something not even Ferrari do ever despite their fame) is another evident proof

Heikki didn't challenge Hamilton. What team orders were there at the start of the 2008 season?

A fourth proof is Ron Dennis paying Hamilton career since he was 12, so both himself and the team (who missed an english champion for too many years) were eager to see Lewis winning in their rookie year, what would have been a marketing bomb

That's no proof of anything. McLaren had sponsored Hamilton's early career just as lots of drivers are sponsored in their early careers. Do you really think they'd derail Alonso just for that reason?

A fifth would be FIA sending a marshal to McLaren garage to ensure there was nothing weird there

This was done because it was being suggested that Alonso's car was being messed around with. Which it wasn't.

A sixth was McLaren saying they did a mistake with Alonso tire pressures in one of the final key GPs, providing more pressure than needed and making Alonso car some tenths slower instantly. No F1 team make those mistakes

Really? No F1 team makes tyre pressure mistakes? Right. Never happened before or since. Total one off effecting only Alonso? Ok, got it.

So the "evidence" is pretty, er, thin.

Thanks for that

You might want to google evidence vs proof.

Providing hard proof for ANYTHING being discussed here would be very difficult to impossible. So we need to look at and connect the few facts and clues we have.

If you want to close your eyes and dismiss anything that contradicts your viewpoint in a bid to praise your hero, feel free to do so. Like I said, everybody is free to make up their own opinion based on the available information and their own personal biases.

[NathanOlder]

His "evidence":

He fell out with the team principal. They separated by mutual agreement because they couldn't work together. That's not proof that the team would sabotage him in future.


Heikki didn't challenge Hamilton. What team orders were there at the start of the 2008 season?


That's no proof of anything. McLaren had sponsored Hamilton's early career just as lots of drivers are sponsored in their early careers. Do you really think they'd derail Alonso just for that reason?


This was done because it was being suggested that Alonso's car was being messed around with. Which it wasn't.


Really? No F1 team makes tyre pressure mistakes? Right. Never happened before or since. Total one off effecting only Alonso? Ok, got it.

So the "evidence" is pretty, er, thin.

Thanks for that

You might want to google evidence vs proof.

Providing hard proof for ANYTHING being discussed here would be very difficult to impossible. So we need to look at and connect the few facts and clues we have.

If you want to close your eyes and dismiss anything that contradicts your viewpoint in a bid to praise your hero, feel free to do so. Like I said, everybody is free to make up their own opinion based on the available information and their own personal biases.

I'm praising them both, it took both of them to be the top level drivers they are to gift the title to Ferrari and Kimi.
Both Lewis and Fernando were/are top tier drivers. I'm not one of these fans that only praise 1 driver and ignore the rest thank you.

[Just_a_fan]

If you want to close your eyes and dismiss anything that contradicts your viewpoint in a bid to praise your hero, feel free to do so. Like I said, everybody is free to make up their own opinion based on the available information and their own personal biases.

Which applies both ways, of course.

[lh13]

The post you dug up states facts.

This is the definition of a 'fact': A thing that is known or proved to be true.

Your post contained no facts, only assumptions.

done that, but didn´t score one single point more than Alonso despite the blatantly obvious support from the team to Dennis protege

Came second in the championship to Alonso's third. That's "beating your team mate" in the one way that matters - on the standings table.

What Andres125sx wrote was a 'fact', as Hamilton really did not score a single more point than Alonso, yet you started your usual mindless defence of Hamilton. Feel free to do so, but don't stop others if they do the same.

As for Alonso, well he rather made his bed by effectively threatening the team principal. As to whether there would have been a different outcome, no one knows. Maybe if Hamilton wasn't been messed around by the team in China and forced to run his tyres to the canvas, he'd have won the title anyway. No one knows. Maybe Alonso would have won the title, stayed and won many titles. May be not. But he took the decision to try to force Dennis down a course of action favouring Alonso. But he didn't understand that one man that wouldn't be threatened was Ron Dennis.

If Alonso did all of that, Dennis wouldn't have hired him again, in my opinion.

As for McLaren signing Alonso a second time, the team was very different then. No Dennis, no Whitmarsh. So it could be a fresh start.

Wrong, again.



https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... son-Button

As for Hamilton having "team favour and weak team mates", well neither Button nor Rosberg would normally be considered weak. But if it makes you feel better, fine. And team favour? Other than possibly 07, when has the team favoured Hamilton through a season to give him the title?

I never said all of his 7 championships were against weak teammates, but I like how you left out Kovalainen and Bottas. That's 5 championships out of 7 against weak teammates.