Is the RB18 dominant?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
AeroDynamic
349
Joined: 28 Sep 2021, 12:25
Location: La règle du jeu

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

Perhaps a more reliable way to see if a car is dominant is how big the points gap is between the number 1 driver of the top two teams. If it’s above 100 points, it’s probably a reliable indicator of dominance from the car.

User avatar
ispano6
153
Joined: 09 Mar 2017, 23:56
Location: my playseat

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

And probably what isn't getting as much credit are the mechanics and engineers who are able to set up the car according to Max and Checo's feel such that the RB18 has the right balance to be strong on different circuits. Even during the races they helped with Max's drivability and Checo's car in-balance after taking damage. It's like Checo said - it's a balance of the driver's ability to adapt with the tools they are given.

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

The package of car, driver & team ARE dominant, but that plays out over the course of a race (and season); the car is not dominant (as in head & shoulders above all others) on pace alone. Mistakes, bad strategy and set-up compromises by others have played a part in race results.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Edax
Edax
47
Joined: 08 Apr 2014, 22:47

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

My 2-cts. Normally I would expect a “dominant” car to produce not only a high rate of victories but also an equally high rate of pole positions and fastest laps.

For instance in 2012, RB had 13 victories, 12 fastest laps and 11 poles.
In 2004, ferrari had 15 victories, 15 fastest laps and 12 poles.
In 2014, mercedes had 16 victories, 15 fastest laps and 18 (!) poles.

In 2022 the tally so far is 15 victories, out of 8 fastest laps and 6 poles. I think that is why people are hesitating to call the car dominant despite the wins.

The RB is not a dominant car in the sense that it qualifies 0.3 sec ahead of the field and drives into the yonder. But it arguably is the best car over the length of a stint. They can drive the tires harder and longer than anyone else and as a result are the most flexible in terms of tire strategies.

Perhaps in the era of tire degradation, energy management and easy overtakes, that is the new definition of dominance.

User avatar
AeroDynamic
349
Joined: 28 Sep 2021, 12:25
Location: La règle du jeu

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

the car is head and shoulders above. max doesn't need to push flat out at the moment and from far back (from mistakes in strategies, pit stops or spins, indeed big grid penalties) can make the order and win.

bosyber
bosyber
45
Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 22:41

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

AeroDynamic wrote:
24 Oct 2022, 22:25
the car is head and shoulders above. max doesn't need to push flat out at the moment and from far back (from mistakes in strategies, pit stops or spins, indeed big grid penalties) can make the order and win.
Exactly. And due to this, and what Edax said above, they don't need to focus on qualifying the way Ferrari apparently feel they have to to have any chance at all. How often has Verstappen (and Perez as well, to some extent) shown that he can get back to the front when something went against them now this season? Quite a few times.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
17 Oct 2022, 08:07


Yes, and I could have an affair with Scarlett Johansson... but reality is no, I wont. Have you ever seen any car winning most of the races without being dominant? Then no need to imagine absurd scenarios #-o
Yes. Verstappen winning most of the races in 2021. Hamilton winning most of them in 2018.
A lion must kill its prey.

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
25 Oct 2022, 00:34
Andres125sx wrote:
17 Oct 2022, 08:07


Yes, and I could have an affair with Scarlett Johansson... but reality is no, I wont. Have you ever seen any car winning most of the races without being dominant? Then no need to imagine absurd scenarios #-o
Yes. Verstappen winning most of the races in 2021. Hamilton winning most of them in 2018.

2021: Max 10 victories, from 22 GPs, 45%
2018: Hamilton 11 from 21 GPs, 52%
.
.
.
2022: Max 13 victories in 19 GPs, 68%, and still 3 GPs left wich will probably increase this percentage even further

DChemTech
DChemTech
44
Joined: 25 Mar 2019, 11:31
Location: Delft, NL

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
25 Oct 2022, 08:22
AR3-GP wrote:
25 Oct 2022, 00:34
Andres125sx wrote:
17 Oct 2022, 08:07


Yes, and I could have an affair with Scarlett Johansson... but reality is no, I wont. Have you ever seen any car winning most of the races without being dominant? Then no need to imagine absurd scenarios #-o
Yes. Verstappen winning most of the races in 2021. Hamilton winning most of them in 2018.

2021: Max 10 victories, from 22 GPs, 45%
2018: Hamilton 11 from 21 GPs, 52%
.
.
.
2022: Max 13 victories in 19 GPs, 68%, and still 3 GPs left wich will probably increase this percentage even further
Senna 1983 F3 - winning 60% of races (and 86% of races he finished) in a car that by definition is not dominant since the main competitor drove the same car for a different team. The difference has to be driver/team performance.
Magnussen 1994 won 78% of races, again with most competition driving the same chassis/engine. And probably in karting similar things happen. That it's rare that a driver dominates without a dominant car doesn't mean it can't happen in theory, and it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in practice.

Xyz22
Xyz22
123
Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

The RB18 is just like the RB9. Strong at the start of the season and became dominant after the TD 039 (the RB 9 became unbeatable after the tyre change).
Look at Perez Leclerc last stint in Austin. Perez recovered 7s in like 15 laps. Singapore happened the same with Leclerc trying to keep up driving like a madman possessed (Sainz almost losing 1s per lap in every stint compared to Perez). Reminded me of Schumacher in Australia 98 trying to fight against the OP Mclaren.

MadMax
MadMax
4
Joined: 22 Oct 2022, 03:23

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

Is F1 unique in sport? Fans of a team claim that their car isn't that good even though it's winning most of the time. In any other sport, the fans would be taking out ads on highway billboards shouting how great they are.

What a strange bunch we are. :lol:

User avatar
Sieper
73
Joined: 14 Mar 2017, 15:19

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

Because I truly believe, and the numbers have always supported it, Max has a big part to play in the performance.

User avatar
JordanMugen
85
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

Sieper wrote:
25 Oct 2022, 13:28
Because I truly believe, and the numbers have always supported it, Max has a big part to play in the performance.
Ferrari and Mercedes also have very good "tier one" drivers so that should even out. :?:

Verstappen's ability to get the job done with efficiency and minimal mistakes is certainly very valuable to Red Bull Racing mind you, but I doubt Verstappen is driving significantly better in 2022 than 2020, or Hamilton is driving significantly worse in 2022 than 2020.

Routine victories that merely build statistics should be called out as such, regardless of the driver -- be it Hamilton or Verstappen collecting the routine victories (or multiple routine championships!). There's a lot more routine victories needed for Verstappen to close in on the excessive statistics of Schumacher and Hamilton mind you, not good news for rival fans, assuming Verstappen and RBR can indeed build similar stats! :wink: :D

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
365
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
26 Oct 2022, 05:53
Sieper wrote:
25 Oct 2022, 13:28
Because I truly believe, and the numbers have always supported it, Max has a big part to play in the performance.
Ferrari and Mercedes also have very good "tier one" drivers so that should even out. :?:
In theory yes, but of the 3 top rated drivers (Ver,Ham,Lec) Verstappen really has been the cleanest this season. Lec and Hamilton had crashes that destroyed their races. Hamilton in Austria qualy and Spa race. Leclerc in Imola and France.
A lion must kill its prey.

mendis
mendis
19
Joined: 03 Jul 2022, 16:12

Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

Post

Xyz22 wrote:
25 Oct 2022, 10:24
The RB18 is just like the RB9. Strong at the start of the season and became dominant after the TD 039 (the RB 9 became unbeatable after the tyre change).
Look at Perez Leclerc last stint in Austin. Perez recovered 7s in like 15 laps. Singapore happened the same with Leclerc trying to keep up driving like a madman possessed (Sainz almost losing 1s per lap in every stint compared to Perez). Reminded me of Schumacher in Australia 98 trying to fight against the OP Mclaren.
Credit goes to Mercedes. :oops: