F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

[Professor]

I can only say that I have no real clue as to how they do it or even if they do it. I just posted the link to help further the discussion.

But I can say that the biggest advantage is in finding a way to adjust the best quali setup, i.e. lowest possible ride height, to the best full fuel set up, i.e the same height as quali with the extra 160kg fuel load.

With no parc ferme adjustments allowed, some tricky engineering is required. I don't know what that is, but it is easily possible, but perhaps not within the regs.

[autogyro]

The system I have described breezy simply maintains the set low ride height no matter what the fuel weight or the DF level.
The secret is in the suspension geometry that allows the soft springs to both work and compress with any extra load. But also alters the primary hydrolic/gas system to compensate for any ride height changes.
The Leyland system only worked in pitch using two seperate left and right pairs of units. The RB system if it is this type also links across the car in roll.

[BreezyRacer]

The system I have described breezy simply maintains the set low ride height no matter what the fuel weight or the DF level.
The secret is in the suspension geometry that allows the soft springs to both work and compress with any extra load. But also alters the primary hydrolic/gas system to compensate for any ride height changes.
The Leyland system only worked in pitch using two seperate left and right pairs of units. The RB system if it is this type also links across the car in roll.

I understand what you're saying autogyro. Basically adjusting ride height to max extension of the stops (usually shock travel but better if bump stops) and then cranking in enough spring/bump rubber to keep it there. Funny, but I have a car setup like that in the rear precisely to control ride height and for other reasons. Anyway I can tell you it's quite a compliance compromise. But you gravitate to what's fast, so I get that. I cannot imagine they are doing this but maybe. I would think that it would turn the RB6 into a basketball, especially over the FIA curbing.

What James Allen suggests is that in parc ferme they are allowed to recharge dampers (understood as they can leak down overnight even). If that is indeed true you don't have to be a rocket scientist to boost the nitrogen charge to increase ride height. And Alan speculates that we're only talking about 3 mm of ride height so that's very do-able that way. If so, mystery solved and it's no big deal. Any team could do it, and they probably all will at the next race. It's too late for Melbourne. The true question to this is .. with the small piston shocks they use for packaging and weight savings, did RB engineer this into the shock setup for the car from the start and for this reason, or did it require anything more than just the idea to do it? Piston diameter means a lot when you're talking about shock pressures affecting ride height.

[marcush.]

the pressure in the damper is not working the piston ,it is working the piston rod -the rod diameter is responsible for the force moving the piston out.. so to lift the car 3mm you´d need a pressure which cannot be sustained by the seals in the damper.. and it would move up the stickslip forces beyound any useful level.. so forget this idea it is not that simple.
You need either two ridehight setting between you can switch somehow be it thru a bleed or a ratchet system or you need a possibility to alter springrate or preload.
So maybe a material that is quite soft and sort of melts away under the loads of the working car..so you reduce the rideheight by wearin7melting down the preload spacer,for example.. but this would of course not really help in qualy ,where you need the car to be low...
so back to the load leveler,you need a spring in paralell not in series to add spring force with a moderate spring .. so it could be something like a inflateable bumpstop perhaps? but you surely don´t want to alter rideheight at high speeds ..

[marcush.]

Make screw adjusters on the push-rods. Similar to ringo's Idea, but the adjusters are motorised (stepper motor) and they are all electrically wired to a single hub and can only be powered and adjusted from plugging in a hand held device into the side of the car during the pit stop.

The mechanic just plugs in the device into a large port in the side of the car. The desired ride hieght is already entered into the device. Upon being connected to the port the mechanic presses a button. Power and a signal is sent to the stepper motors on the push-rods. In about a second or two the ride height is adjusted, a green light is lit on the device and the mechanic withdraws the device from the car.

you would that call a fail safe? four stepper things to be attached engaged checked and undone.. sory i have seen too many things go wrong when humans are involved

one two three they are working on three second stops ,don´t forget ...so try to do something like this on a hot car with 4 tyres going off and 4 going on in that area.. that is not going to work...also it needs to be locked when going out ,something like a quickrelease tensionbolt..to be sure it will not work loose.. i could not sleep having something like that on my car.. the four wheelnuts are enough of variables..

and of course you only have 2 settings available or better said 4 no even more if you change only one or two corners or three...
so no ideal situation.when you change wheels in lap 7 already..

[autogyro]

No breezy, the primary suspension I am describing is presurized gas/hydrolic and is self levelling without bump stops or having to be at the end of any shock absorber travel. It keeps the ride height at optimum no matter the load.
The secondary spring system gives mechanical control and smooths ride,pitch, heave and roll.
Linking the primary system across the car would give adjustable hydrolic ARBs.

[BreezyRacer]

No breezy, the primary suspension I am describing is presurized gas/hydrolic and is self levelling without bump stops or having to be at the end of any shock absorber travel. It keeps the ride height at optimum no matter the load.
The secondary spring system gives mechanical control and smooths ride,pitch, heave and roll.
Linking the primary system across the car would give adjustable hydrolic ARBs.

I have to admit that I'm not smart enough to see my way clear to what you're describing. How can you ever add weight and not add load/compression on the chassis? I'll just sit this one out ..

[mep]

Hey marcush are you still tring to explain them how this system can't work?
I thought we got trough that topic 2 months ago.


(pls don't mind that little joke)

[autogyro]

I dont mind at all for one mep, I could be totaly wrong about what is being used.
We will see.

[autogyro]

No breezy, the primary suspension I am describing is presurized gas/hydrolic and is self levelling without bump stops or having to be at the end of any shock absorber travel. It keeps the ride height at optimum no matter the load.
The secondary spring system gives mechanical control and smooths ride,pitch, heave and roll.
Linking the primary system across the car would give adjustable hydrolic ARBs.

I have to admit that I'm not smart enough to see my way clear to what you're describing. How can you ever add weight and not add load/compression on the chassis? I'll just sit this one out ..

The primary system has a gas reservoir that applies pressure to both sides of a hydrolic suspension 'ram'/piston. The position of this ram operates a valve system that varies the pressure on each side of the piston to keep the piston at a position relative to a set point on the suspension geometry. Load variations cause changes in the pressure on each side of the piston using the gas presure source, that maintains this geometric position. The sprung suspension works from this set base geometry.
Joining the hydrolics of the primary rams front to rear gives valve controlled heave and pitch and joining them side to side gives hydrolic ARBs. This is done on the primary system within a narrow range that is always centered on the correct ride height, that remains the same no matter what the load so long as pressure is maintained. The softer sprung (coil/torsion bar) secondary system works from this ride height datum point.
It is a simple matter to work this out for the mini hydralastic system, which used four air/fluid units one on each wheel and rubber bump stops for the secondary springing. The only things we did was to join the two rear units together to experement with hydrolic ARBs and change the valve rates.
It would take a genius to design such a system into an F1 suspension.

[bill shoe]

Regarding NASCAR and other series where there has traditionally been manipulation around minimum (static) ride height rules: It's my understanding that most of that manipulation, at least at tracks like Daytona, simply consisted of having one-way shocks that slammed the car down until it had no functioning suspension left.

Apologies, Bill, but ride height manipulation in series like NASCAR is a little more sophisticated than your explanation would suggest - which, by the way, wouldn't work even on the Daytona oval (think about lateral balance). Something similar could easily be used by F1 teams to control the variation in ride height with fuel burn. To put the problem into context, you might like to consider the ratio of fuel weight to down force at terminal airspeed (which the suspension also has to cope with).

Thanks for the response. I think the simple one-way dampers would work fine at Daytona. Things like lateral balance don't matter because the cars circulate at well under their maximum cornering potential. A modern NASCAR race at Daytona or Talladega is a top-speed contest that happens to repeat around the same closed course. The cars only "corner" in the sense that they try to scrub off as little speed as possible in the corners. By the way, yes I understand there is a lot of engineering detail and expertise in doing this faster than the next guy.

At other tracks where the cars corner at their limit the one-way dampers would create really hard suspension that would do terrible things to lateral balance. However, good aero can be faster than good balance.

I know the crude one-way type dampers were how NASCAR teams were doing it a few years ago, and then NASCAR started handing out mandatory spec dampers and regulating spring rates, etc. If they have some other trick setup now then I'm interested. Do you have any info that's more specific about work-arounds for the static ride height rules? I'm not asking for detailed damper schematics, but I am intersted in any general functional description beyond "more sophisticated".

Also, yes I understand that max aero load in F1 is much greater than full fuel load. I don't understand where that comment was supposed to lead me.

[BreezyRacer]

No breezy, the primary suspension I am describing is presurized gas/hydrolic and is self levelling without bump stops or having to be at the end of any shock absorber travel. It keeps the ride height at optimum no matter the load.
The secondary spring system gives mechanical control and smooths ride,pitch, heave and roll.
Linking the primary system across the car would give adjustable hydrolic ARBs.

I have to admit that I'm not smart enough to see my way clear to what you're describing. How can you ever add weight and not add load/compression on the chassis? I'll just sit this one out ..

The primary system has a gas reservoir that applies pressure to both sides of a hydrolic suspension 'ram'/piston. The position of this ram operates a valve system that varies the pressure on each side of the piston to keep the piston at a position relative to a set point on the suspension geometry. Load variations cause changes in the pressure on each side of the piston using the gas presure source, that maintains this geometric position. The sprung suspension works from this set base geometry.
Joining the hydrolics of the primary rams front to rear gives valve controlled heave and pitch and joining them side to side gives hydrolic ARBs. This is done on the primary system within a narrow range that is always centered on the correct ride height, that remains the same no matter what the load so long as pressure is maintained. The softer sprung (coil/torsion bar) secondary system works from this ride height datum point.
It is a simple matter to work this out for the mini hydralastic system, which used four air/fluid units one on each wheel and rubber bump stops for the secondary springing. The only things we did was to join the two rear units together to experement with hydrolic ARBs and change the valve rates.
It would take a genius to design such a system into an F1 suspension.

This sounds like active suspension, just driven by mechanical sensors rather than a computer. I'm pretty sure a system like this would be bounced in a heartbeat, but then I thought that about the McLaren blown wing too. I was quite surprised they approved that .. an aero control manipulated by the driver.

[autogyro]

It cannot be described as active in the accepted sense.
All the fluids and gas are the same concept as conventional suspension.
Anyway they might not be using it.
I think it would take about two weeks to design and fit if any of the others want it.

[marcush.]

Hey marcush are you still tring to explain them how this system can't work?
I thought we got trough that topic 2 months ago.


(pls don't mind that little joke)

you gotme..I still do not get over this ..sorry but maybe it is my process oriented thinking....i´m not the guy to say do this or that and lets later care about how we could possibly make it work in reality..oh --- we had a mishap in the pitstop ..one mechanic dropped the ride height adjuster thingy and so we had to finish the race on 3 wheels ...or whatever.. i will stop commenting on this..maybe we will see such a solution in the next race??? would love to see it,really.. [-o<

[tok-tokkie]

Professor posted a link that describes the Nivomat self levelling shock.

Here is another (longer)description of it: http://www.roversd1.info/misc/suspension.html


This diagram from that link shows how the stroke remains the same despite load, not just the amplitude of the stroke but also the position that the stroke operates from. It is self contained and can hardly be said to be active suspension.