Belatti wrote:Holy grail doesnt neccesary means a formula or 10 formulas, but just to know the parameters you can manipulate plus the covariace relationships to know how to get things in the plateau you mention
Gentlemen, let's make hay before someone finds a reason to thrash this intellectual discussion;
What is a tyre anyway, this is what I can appreciate;
- A cord of fibers covered with rubber or a rubber-like compound.
- Contact force over tyre-pressure equals contact-patch area.
- Contact force over wall-stiffness equals deflection.
How difficult could it be to identify the above?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"
speedsense wrote:Trying to extract information from a tire company, even one that is sponsoring your team, is highly difficult.
The tire engineers, can only tell you what their company allows them to tell you.
That's ridiculous.
We have a single tire supplier supporting all the teams, there is no tire war. I can't see a reason why they hold back the data's the teams need. They don't even need to tell how the tire is build just some graphs showing how the tire performs under given conditions.
FIA should even force the supplier to provide necessary data's otherwise its pure luck if you build your car the right way.
As comparison when somebody buys a engine everybody asks how much power, torque, revs and fuel consumption it has. Nobody would buy a engine without knowing that. So why people don't care about tires?
Does the supplier even know themselves what they sell you?
I mention it the third time now (still haven't got a proper answer), when you don't get the data's you want you should not wait a second and measure them out yourself. Teams have big wind tunnels for millions of dollars but no own tire test rig?????
It can't be that complicated. I would build one who fits into a truck and who is able to test the tire together with the whole suspension. The machine should change every parameter and measure transmitted forces, temperature and so on.
You could even simulate the track layout or driver mistakes.
Stop the guesswork and make it a proper science.
Is there no company already who builds such test rigs?
Don't y'all think there could be another option?
Namely -- the tyre manufacturer itself don't have "all the data".
See, tyres are working at the limit of their abilities at very hot temperature. Somebody mentioned that F1 tyre is vulcanized very, very little.
There are probably a whole bunch of pure chemical processes that happen along the way which may depend on ambient condition, how driver manage the tyre etc. Also, consider something like moving of rubber particles along the surface/shedding.
IMO working F1 tyre is very tricky thing to measure and almost impossible to model (without testing).
Also, one can definitely say, that having a tyre problem is not too uncommon for ex-Brawn/Honda guys.
Not their forte I guess.
autogyro wrote:+1
I believe there are commercial reasons for the witholding of tyre data.
How would you explain this? Normaly companies provide data's to promote their product. Or do you think the tires are that worse than they can't tell puplic?
Don't y'all think there could be another option?
Namely -- the tyre manufacturer itself don't have "all the data".
Even more reasons to get own tire test rig for teams.
Maybe the tires are very inconsistent in their performance?
This could explain why some drivers are good in Q2 and suddenly lose half a second in Q3.
speedsense wrote:Trying to extract information from a tire company, even one that is sponsoring your team, is highly difficult.
The tire engineers, can only tell you what their company allows them to tell you.
That's ridiculous.
We have a single tire supplier supporting all the teams, there is no tire war. I can't see a reason why they hold back the data's the teams need. They don't even need to tell how the tire is build just some graphs showing how the tire performs under given conditions.
FIA should even force the supplier to provide necessary data's otherwise its pure luck if you build your car the right way.
As comparison when somebody buys a engine everybody asks how much power, torque, revs and fuel consumption it has. Nobody would buy a engine without knowing that. So why people don't care about tires?
Does the supplier even know themselves what they sell you?
I mention it the third time now (still haven't got a proper answer), when you don't get the data's you want you should not wait a second and measure them out yourself. Teams have big wind tunnels for millions of dollars but no own tire test rig?????
It can't be that complicated. I would build one who fits into a truck and who is able to test the tire together with the whole suspension. The machine should change every parameter and measure transmitted forces, temperature and so on.
You could even simulate the track layout or driver mistakes.
Stop the guesswork and make it a proper science.
Is there no company already who builds such test rigs?
I was told by a good friend at Pirelli, that there are two reasons for a tire company to be in racing. One is to make a name for the company, the other is to make money selling racing tires. Most companies that sell spec tires, do so to make money. Why would they be interested in creating competition for themselves by telling their secrets and possibly losing a contract the following year to a competing company? I doubt very much that Bridgestone is going to help Pirelli out in F1 for next year.
Tire machines-Yes, there are a few around, especially rolling tire rigs that create (Lateral and Vertical G) and map out the footprint. Can't remember who makes it though, sorry. A lot of information can be extracted, but the machines are highly specialized and expensive. Excellent for piping in data to a sim program. But as you said, if you have enough to own a wind tunnel, the tire machine's a drop in the bucket. Stationary ones are cheaper and limited in info. Rolling machines are the way to go, for more concise data.
I don't know what tire companies are like in Germany, but here in the USA, many are tight lipped about their tires, even the spec'd ones. Not so much on construction aspects, but compound info is like pulling teeth.
You can get a lot of info but only by speaking with the "right" people, as most engineers tow the company policies and are unwilling to part with some important info. Some are more open than others (Goodyear,Bridgestone) and some will hunt you down with a SWAT team if you try and leave with one of their tires..(Michelin comes to mind)
I saw Bridgestone call the cops and search trailers over a missing tire at a Champcar race one time in St Petersburg. Apparently a Trans Am team (sharing the pits with CCar, accidently picked it up. Nobody got arrested, but just goes to show how protective they are of the tire technology.
Last edited by speedsense on 11 Jul 2010, 16:38, edited 1 time in total.
"Driving a car as fast as possible (in a race) is all about maintaining the highest possible acceleration level in the appropriate direction." Peter Wright,Techical Director, Team Lotus
speedsense wrote:Trying to extract information from a tire company, even one that is sponsoring your team, is highly difficult.
The tire engineers, can only tell you what their company allows them to tell you.
However, a conversation with their compound engineer can be very enlightening as nobody seems to seek these guys out for any information and most of them are more than happy to talk about their job, as they never get to....
You might be surprised. Depends on the tire company and the "engineer" you find (many at the track are techs). I will say that the company I work for (should be obvious which) is typically super open with tire data.
As for teams getting their own tire test rigs... (a) there are none in existence that 'do it all', (b) even if you had one, you have to get your tire manufacturer to give you tires to test [especially if they are leased at the track]. Some tire manufacturers don't let anyone have test tires (c) it takes a long time to really develop any proficiency at testing tires. Like.. years. Team could be testing away and just coming up with crap. Testing race tires, incidentally, is about 50% of my job description.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.
speedsense wrote:Trying to extract information from a tire company, even one that is sponsoring your team, is highly difficult.
The tire engineers, can only tell you what their company allows them to tell you.
However, a conversation with their compound engineer can be very enlightening as nobody seems to seek these guys out for any information and most of them are more than happy to talk about their job, as they never get to....
You might be surprised. Depends on the tire company and the "engineer" you find (many at the track are techs). I will say that the company I work for (should be obvious which) is typically super open with tire data.
As for teams getting their own tire test rigs... (a) there are none in existence that 'do it all', (b) even if you had one, you have to get your tire manufacturer to give you tires to test [especially if they are leased at the track]. Some tire manufacturers don't let anyone have test tires (c) it takes a long time to really develop any proficiency at testing tires. Like.. years. Team could be testing away and just coming up with crap. Testing race tires, incidentally, is about 50% of my job description.
I have been surprised over the years. I have several very close relationships with a few tire companies, and will only rely on their personal info. Kinda depends what end of the stick your on and whether your competing with other tire companies in the same race.
Arkon, Ohio.... I've visited your factory..
"Driving a car as fast as possible (in a race) is all about maintaining the highest possible acceleration level in the appropriate direction." Peter Wright,Techical Director, Team Lotus
25.5 Testing of tyres :
a)Tyres supplied to any competitor at any time may not be used on any rig or vehicle (other than an F1 car on an F1 approved track, at the exclusion of any kind of road simulator), either Team owned or rented, providing measurements of forces and/or moments produced by a rotating full size F1 tyre, other than uniquely vertical forces, tyre rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag.
b) Tyres may be used on a test rig providing forces control and monitoring by F1 rim manufacturers for the sole purpose of proof testing their products.
So if someone was stretching the rules to the limit ,you could try to integrate your tyre testing in your allococation of full scale Aero testing and thats about it...?
clearly any attempt to use something else than the car to gather data of the tyre seems to be ruled out..but maybe I´m too unimaginative ....
interesting conversation going on here.
I hope you don´t mind, if I join in.
As for the topic of making tire data availible to the teams.
Why would they not do it? Because they don´t have to, in the
current single tire supplier situation.
As funny as it may sound. In a tire war situation, tire companies
are more willed to provide data or point teams in the direction
where they should go, because they want to make sure they are better
then the other tire company and their teams. So there is an incentive
to help.
Now everybody is in the same boat/ on the same tire.
They just need to make sure, they keep a level playing field.
So they can give all the information´s they have to
every team, or non/or limited to every team.
They will most likely choose the "safer" option. Just give the basics.
I´m also sure that no tire company knows all the answers, as there are too
many variables involved, and not all the interactions are perfectly understood.
Tom´s comparsion with aero is a good one in my opinion. As would be weather forecast.
It´s like asking why, after all the years, we still cannot predict weather to the exact
temperature and cloud cover for next week. Because it´s very very complex with may variables which are hard to predict/anticipate, and all the interactions are not 100% understood.
Tire test rigs exist and are used, but can only give anwsers to some questions, as you
will need to keep some parameters constant, to measure others. But in reality all the parameters will change at any time, you have rarly steady state conditions, when a F1 car
is on the track. So tire test rig data provide only a snapshot of a high speed movie - so to speak.
As for the simulation argument. I think part of the problem is "initial condition", because
of what is said before, at some point you have to make an assumption. If this assumption is wrong, all your following steps (in terms of calculation) will be flawed, and the result will not represent reality. That does not mean, that your simulation/calculation as such is wrong. Just that you used the wrong parameters for your variables. Rubish in = Rubish out.
If you can´t know all the initial parameters for all the variables, their is a element of luck involved. Some make a better guess then others.
Let´s use track temperature as an example. To optimize your setup, you would need to
estimate/or guess what the track temp will be at the next race.
So based on your weather forecast and expirience, you will assume it´s going to be(most likely) between 40-50°C for Hungary (just as an example).
Bridgstone will have select their tires around that assumption and teams will choose their setup accordingly.
Now if you come to the track and it is 15-20° cooler than you are in deep sh***.
All your carefull scientific calculations are out of the window, and you play catch up.
You have the wrong tires and the wrong setup.
It´s a shame in a high tech world like F1, but it makes for good racing, as we have seen in Canada.
This is maybe another reason, that Bridgestone (or any other sole tire supplier) is encouraged ,by people with a commercial interest in the entertainment of F1, to not make it
too easy for the teams to get it right all the time. I´m sure there are people in the background not too unhappy, that their is a random element to it.
To help people/teams to catch up, you best allow for more track testing.
Otherwise a performance advantage by one/some team(s) is going to be long lived.
As long as people cannot understand where they are wrong (learn from expirience),
it´s difficult to improve
On another dimension, that goes for the design of the car as well.
If you are forced to assume/or guess the characteristics of next years tires, you are
at the risk, of being completely out. Then you are stuck with a car which was ,very carefully, designed and optimized for the wrong/different tire.
It´s hard to come back from there, epecially quickly.
And all that because you maybe anticipated the stiffness (or any other parameter) of the tire wrong.
It´s a bit like picking a team of top notch soccer players, just to be told that we are going to play rugby instead.
That´s may why some people want to define the long. position of the CoG for next year within
close boundaries. To make sure nobody is totally "on the moon" by making the wrong guess.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver." - Colin Chapman
“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci
it seems rather obvious that some parameters are either ignored or influencing setupdecisions not in the correct proportion,if this was entirely setup issue..
But what if : it was not the setup but the layout of the car ,or the activity by the team before the run that influenced the result being off in certain circumstances?
say...the tyre needed not 2hrs at 85°C in the blankets but the whole night at 90°C to give otimum performance when track temp rised from 35 to 42?
your predictions can only work if you know the whole story .And as long as you don´t hit the sweet spot constantly it is more or less experience or educated guesswork .
With no possibility to create any tyre data detached from the car and you don´have a competitors car to compare,it all looks very hit and miss to me .the seasoned guys will inevitably hit the jackpot more often but in reality the aim must be to CREATE
a car that works the tyres independantly from those parameters you cannot influence
eg a wide operation window of peak performance is needed for tracksurface and tracktemperature as a development goal, right?
