2012 European GP - Valencia

[i70q7m7ghw]

Consider this.

Who's to say Hamilton even had the grip to leave Maldonado space? You all saw the car, it's highly likely he wasn't able to take any other line because the car was fighting against him. If you look at the amount of lock Hamilton was using, this doesn't seem that unlikely.

Fact is Maldonado was penalised, driver stewards called it. You can preach all night long about what you THINK drivers were doing, but you will never KNOW because you don't have access to the data the stewards do.

[bhall]

Consider this.

Who's to say Hamilton even had the grip to leave Maldonado space? You all saw the car, it's highly likely he wasn't able to take any other line because the car was fighting against him.

Is there an echo?

Sounds like talking in circles tbh.

I could just as well say that there was no door open for Maldonado either (due to the fact that pursuing his manoeuvre took him off the track) and that Hamiltons position was the cause of that.

There was no space that Maldonado could have driven into to, in order to complete the overtake.

It is the role of the overtaking driver to drive into space, not to wait for space to be made available to them.

That's just silly.

[GrizzleBoy]

You are entitled to your opinion. I find it quite reasonable, especially given that what I said is exactly what transpired.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Consider this.

Who's to say Hamilton even had the grip to leave Maldonado space? You all saw the car, it's highly likely he wasn't able to take any other line because the car was fighting against him.

Is there an echo?

Sorry if you suggested this already, I get bored reading the same thing over and over again so decided to say my final part

[bhall]

You are entitled to your opinion. I find it quite reasonable, especially given that what I said is exactly what transpired.

What transpired has never been in doubt. It's the how and why that are in limbo.

Relatively speaking, some people are going to look at this and cry bloody murder at Maldonado's actions. Others are going to look at it and cry bloody murder at Hamilton's actions. The rest of us just see two fools who cancelled each other out.

(A win/win if you ask me.)

EDIT:

Sorry if you suggested this already, I get bored reading the same thing over and over again so decided to say my final part

Completely understandable.

[HVS5b]

Unbelievably good race for Valencia, beyond all expectations. A real shame for SV but a very ominous performance I believe. It's starting to look like Red Bull can begin to exert some domination as we move towards the half way point in the season.

My admiration for Alonso just grows and grows, what an incredible all-round driver and team leader. Deserving leader of the championship.

The Good: Fernando, Lotus, Webber & Schuey.
The Bad: New front jack, stewards decisions, alternators
The Ugly: Pastor Maldonado (100% at fault, should have been hammered by stewards)

If that's what Valencia can produce, imagine what delights await at Silverstone!

[Ray]

If he wasn't as far ahead as he was during the initial turn in, Lewis would have easily been able shut the door just as he did with Maldonado, but Grosjeans car was far ahead enough and already had enough steering input to actually be nearing closing the door for Hamilton approaching the apex.

Grosjean understeered into that corner pretty badly and almost locked a tire, but he still got past because Lewis gave him the room he needed. Your video shows it, my screencaps show it. What they also show is that Lewis unequivicollay slammed the door on Maldonado, who was in a similar position to Grosjean throughout the corner phase except for the very end. Lewis drove a line shaped like an "L" that was different to ever other time he went through there. Whether it was due to tires, or him actually defending I don't know. Could be a bit of both. But it most certainly is bullshit that there was no way Maldonado could have passed him cleanly. The only reason he didn't is because Lewis either couldn't control his car due to tire wear, or he ran Maldonado as wide as possible without hitting him to prevent himself from losing the place. Either way, Maldonado had the speed and track position to pass Lewis, his tires were so bad he couldn't do anything other than drive the line he was capable of doing, or he shoved him off on purpose. You continue to look at it from the view that there's no way he could've passed because he didn't, not that he didn't pass because Lewis shoved him off the circuit after Maldonado got too close.

In the end, he's in the wall with zero points, and his attitude of "never say uncle" in the post race interview shows that he still hasn't learned. He should have yielded to collect points. It's not romantic, or cool, and doesn't make for good TV all the time but it wins championships. You can't win every race and you can't keep every position no matter how badly you want to, Lewis either literally doesn't believe this or is too hard headed to see the bigger picture. Living to fight another day isn't cowardice or weak, it's smart.

[Ray]

You've edited my post and taken statements out of context to suit your own agenda.

Read the part about Maldonado actually being able to make the corner using the line he did. This is the most important bit.

I didn't quote the rest of it because it made zero sense. You asked what if Maldonado had driven that same line if Lewis wasn't there. The only reason he was on that line is because Lewis drove him there, not because he made a mistake or wanted to take that line. What you asked is a pointless question because if he took that line with someone not there, due to a mistake say, he would have slowed down and the reason he didn't is because it was for a podium spot. They were racing for position. You're making a comparison by changing the entire scenario and making the comparison irrelevant. What's the point of entertaining a question that changes the debate so drastically to where there isn't debate?

There was more than enough opportunity and reason for Maldonado to chance that pass, Lewis shoved him off track. What he did afterwards was stupid and deserving of a penalty, but simply saying it's not possible because the way the event did turn out versus how they could've turned out are completely false. Which is what I was saying in response to you say that it was an impossible pass to make. When he went four wheels off the track, yes it was pretty much over. Lewis made sure of that through concious decision or his car gave out on him. I'm guessing it was tires.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Just walk away, you're looking foolish now. In one sentance your saying Hamilton probably didn't have the grip to drive any other line, and in the next sentance your saying he should have made space to let Maldonado through, make up your mind.

[myurr]

Ray, you describe it like no other driver in F1 has ever pushed another car wide on corner exit. There are multiple examples of drivers up and down the grid doing this in every single F1 race. It's not unusual, it's not against the rules, and it's not bad driving from Hamilton. You may wish it to be otherwise, but it IS accepted practice in F1. Heck Maldonado himself had used the same move in the same corner earlier in the race!

Hamilton defended his line into the corner, Maldonado had failed to get past. That Maldonado then decided to try and drive off the track and rejoin into the side of Hamilton whilst skidding over a kerb is nothing to do with the way Hamilton handled the corner and everything to do with Maldonado's misjudgement. You can try and skin it up any which way but the simple fact is that Maldonado cannot be trusted in wheel to wheel racing to not run into another driver, and that simply betrays his lack of class.

[andartop]

I think the FIA should clarify the rule about "pushing" other drivers beyond the confines of the race track, to establish whether this also applies to corner exits or not. This way we will avoid another 20 pages of arguing next time there is a similar incident.

Having said that, they also need to clarify how the racing line is defined. On a corner per corner basis or along the whole track? In the first case Lewis was just following the racing line, which would of course be wide on the exit of turn 12. In the second case he had no reason at all to be that wide, unless of course he was struggling with massive understeer. Just watching Vettel's pole lap clearly shows there would be enough space for Maldonado if Lewis was following the faster line!

[Ray]

Ray, you describe it like no other driver in F1 has ever pushed another car wide on corner exit. There are multiple examples of drivers up and down the grid doing this in every single F1 race. It's not unusual, it's not against the rules, and it's not bad driving from Hamilton. You may wish it to be otherwise, but it IS accepted practice in F1. Heck Maldonado himself had used the same move in the same corner earlier in the race!

Hamilton defended his line into the corner, Maldonado had failed to get past. That Maldonado then decided to try and drive off the track and rejoin into the side of Hamilton whilst skidding over a kerb is nothing to do with the way Hamilton handled the corner and everything to do with Maldonado's misjudgement. You can try and skin it up any which way but the simple fact is that Maldonado cannot be trusted in wheel to wheel racing to not run into another driver, and that simply betrays his lack of class.

I know it's common practice, my very first post in this thread was my feelings about it. I've already explained why I don't like it and why I think it's chickenshit racing to force people off the track, even on defense.

I never said Lewis was in the wrong, I've said repeatedly that he had every right to defend himself. I've also said that I didn't think Lewis did anything wrong. I understand if you haven't read all that I said, it's a bit repetitive after all, but I've said the exact opposite of what you think I feel. All I've argued against is that there was no way Maldonado could've passed him, and those that say that are looking at it from the point that since he didn't, he couldn't. I've also never said Maldonado was innocent or could be trusted wheel to wheel. I don't even like him, never did in GP2 and I don't like him now. I've never thought he had any real speed, and I don't like the way he gives interviews.

[myurr]

There was no reason for Hamilton to drift that wide out of the corner. Maldonado's position meant there was no door to shut. Of course, given the condition of his tires, Hamilton may not have had much of a choice.

Like I said, they both screwed up. It was Hamilton first and then Maldonado, and I'm sure it will happen again at some point. These particular drivers have displayed a propensity for taking liberties with common racing etiquette. It is what it is.

That rule isn't applied to corner exit as it's impossible to police. Hamilton was carrying more speed than Maldonado at the apex in an effort to keep him at bay, so as you say he may have not had any choice in drifting that wide. It's a defence used by many drivers at every single race so it's a bit much to say that Hamilton messed up.

[myurr]

I know it's common practice, my very first post in this thread was my feelings about it. I've already explained why I don't like it and why I think it's chickenshit racing to force people off the track, even on defense.

I never said Lewis was in the wrong, I've said repeatedly that he had every right to defend himself. I've also said that I didn't think Lewis did anything wrong. I understand if you haven't read all that I said, it's a bit repetitive after all, but I've said the exact opposite of what you think I feel. All I've argued against is that there was no way Maldonado could've passed him, and those that say that are looking at it from the point that since he didn't, he couldn't. I've also never said Maldonado was innocent or could be trusted wheel to wheel. I don't even like him, never did in GP2 and I don't like him now. I've never thought he had any real speed, and I don't like the way he gives interviews.

I apologise. This has been a very busy thread and I've been out of the loop all day, so I'm trying to catch up and must have misread / confused what you said with other posts.

[strad]

Maldonado should've known better and let Lewis go, and gotten him the next corner

I tried to read thru all the BS and fanboy biased stuff but I think this sums up the Hamilton/Maldonado incident.
I think Lewis was wrong, but sometimes you have to use your head and discretion.