Engine Unfreeze

[adrianjordan]

Well, what defines a 2015 engine? Could be just as well a 2014 engine with 1 2015 token.

They'll use around 21-22 tokens before the start of the season.

Interesting btw that he calls it engine, and not power unit. Either he's making the same common mistake most of us fans do, or the tokens are mostly focussed on the ICE.

Or perhaps simply because Renault are building the ICE and RBR are building the rest??

Pure speculation, but could their "2015" engine be a "2014" engine with some reliability upgrade (so no tokens used) but they still then have tokens to use...

[turbof1]

Well, what defines a 2015 engine? Could be just as well a 2014 engine with 1 2015 token.

They'll use around 21-22 tokens before the start of the season.

Interesting btw that he calls it engine, and not power unit. Either he's making the same common mistake most of us fans do, or the tokens are mostly focussed on the ICE.

Or perhaps simply because Renault are building the ICE and RBR are building the rest??

Pure speculation, but could their "2015" engine be a "2014" engine with some reliability upgrade (so no tokens used) but they still then have tokens to use...

Possible that they devided the tasks between them. There is not much you can do with the ICE, most of its dimensions and points of placement are fixed, but you can shuffle quite around with the other pieces (The battery however also has a fixed position I believe).

However, they'll never build the power unit seperately. I don't think it's a question of what Renault builds and RBR builds. The auxillary energy recovery systems have to work in perfect harmony with the ICE after all.

I don't think a reliability-upgraded power unit will be branded as a 2015 one. Reliability upgrades are a path of exception that stands outside the normal system of yearly tokens. No no, I do think you can assume with certainty that the branding of a 2015 power unit involves usage of tokens.

[diffuser]

Well, what defines a 2015 engine? Could be just as well a 2014 engine with 1 2015 token.

They'll use around 21-22 tokens before the start of the season.

Interesting btw that he calls it engine, and not power unit. Either he's making the same common mistake most of us fans do, or the tokens are mostly focussed on the ICE.

Or perhaps simply because Renault are building the ICE and RBR are building the rest??

Pure speculation, but could their "2015" engine be a "2014" engine with some reliability upgrade (so no tokens used) but they still then have tokens to use...

Possible that they devided the tasks between them. There is not much you can do with the ICE, most of its dimensions and points of placement are fixed, but you can shuffle quite around with the other pieces (The battery however also has a fixed position I believe).

However, they'll never build the power unit seperately. I don't think it's a question of what Renault builds and RBR builds. The auxillary energy recovery systems have to work in perfect harmony with the ICE after all.

I don't think a reliability-upgraded power unit will be branded as a 2015 one. Reliability upgrades are a path of exception that stands outside the normal system of yearly tokens. No no, I do think you can assume with certainty that the branding of a 2015 power unit involves usage of tokens.

I said back page 48:

As per James Allen http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/02/f ... r-changes/
How homologation works
On Friday February 28th the engine manufacturers have to place a sample power unit, comprising an engine, battery, motor generator units, in a box together with a disc containing all the drawings of the power unit components. This is then sealed by the FIA and taken away. At any stage of the season they can take out the unit and the drawings and request any engine from the race pool of any team and compare it with what is in the box.

Now the power unit isn't frozen as a whole. Each PU has 6 parts:

ICE - Internal Combustion Engine
TC - Turbo Charger
MGU-K Motor Generator Unit - Kinetic
MGU-H Motor Generator Unit - Heat
ES - Energy Store
CE - Control Electronics

that are frozen individually.

So they have all the parts of the 2014 engines already (except Honda). Whatever changes you make you need to use tokens to make them and handover drawing and the component(s)/part(s).

So there is no REAL 2015 PU (except Honda) ..Just 2014 + tokens.

[R_Redding]

Well, what defines a 2015 engine? Could be just as well a 2014 engine with 1 2015 token.

SFIs Andy Green implied that the 2014 and 2015 Merc PUs are not very compatible.(in this interview).

https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/ggnWQs ... showinfo=0

SFI are going to the first test with a 2014 car , but only as a result of being behind with the 2015 entry.
So Lotus , Williams and Merc will be using the 2015 PU from the start ...one could presume.

Rob

[Manoah2u]

basically no, because that would be the 2015 spec engine.

We're talking still the 2014 engine here.

That would mean, use the 2014 engine @ melbourne, and use 32 tokens to upgrade as and when they wish to during the season.

so this gets 2 downvotes, why?

[FrukostScones]

basically no, because that would be the 2015 spec engine.

We're talking still the 2014 engine here.

That would mean, use the 2014 engine @ melbourne, and use 32 tokens to upgrade as and when they wish to during the season.

so this gets 2 downvotes, why?

factually incorrect I might guess...

[Richard]

So basically can they use the 2015 spec engine in the first rounds and still develop it using the remaining tokens?

basically no...

so this gets 2 downvotes, why?

The downvotes were for "factually incorrect"

Garaa was basically correct, so your "basically no" was basically wrong. That's as basically basic as I can basically explain it.

[McG]

Lol I've never seen someone care so much about votes and yet be consistently wrong but being so sure of being correct.

[TAG]

In a nutshell the entirety of the engine freeze/unfreeze debacle comes down to the highlighted section below. Turns out it had nothing to do with stifling competition.

GPUpdate Renault says it has made "fundamental changes" to its Formula 1 engine over the winter period, as it bids to close in on pacesetters Mercedes.

Engine manufacturers are permitted to modify up to 48 per cent of their power units for the 2015 season, and can spread updates throughout the campaign.

Renault has used the majority of the permitted 32 development tokens ahead of the opening race in Australia, leaving a "modest" allocation for the rest of the season.

"We have made some fundamental changes to gain performance and reliability," said Rob White, who is now Renault Sport's Chief Technical Officer.

"We have upgraded every system and subsystem, with items that will give the most performance prioritised.

"The principal changes involve the internal combustion engine, turbocharger and battery.

"The ICE will have a new combustion chamber, exhaust system concept and variable trumpets, as permitted by the 2015 regulations.

"The compressor is more efficient, while the energy recovery systems are able to deal with more severe usage.

"The 2014 unit was already well placed in its centre of gravity, however we have tidied up the packaging to give greater ease of integration into the chassis.

"Additionally many systems and functions have been rationalized and simplified to further ease the task.

"In short, there are very few carry over pieces between the 2014 and 2015 power units."

[ParkerArt]

In a nutshell the entirety of the engine freeze/unfreeze debacle comes down to the highlighted section below. Turns out it had nothing to do with stifling competition.
[spoiler]

GPUpdate Renault says it has made "fundamental changes" to its Formula 1 engine over the winter period, as it bids to close in on pacesetters Mercedes.

Engine manufacturers are permitted to modify up to 48 per cent of their power units for the 2015 season, and can spread updates throughout the campaign.

Renault has used the majority of the permitted 32 development tokens ahead of the opening race in Australia, leaving a "modest" allocation for the rest of the season.

"We have made some fundamental changes to gain performance and reliability," said Rob White, who is now Renault Sport's Chief Technical Officer.

"We have upgraded every system and subsystem, with items that will give the most performance prioritised.

"The principal changes involve the internal combustion engine, turbocharger and battery.

"The ICE will have a new combustion chamber, exhaust system concept and variable trumpets, as permitted by the 2015 regulations.

"The compressor is more efficient, while the energy recovery systems are able to deal with more severe usage.

"The 2014 unit was already well placed in its centre of gravity, however we have tidied up the packaging to give greater ease of integration into the chassis.

"Additionally many systems and functions have been rationalized and simplified to further ease the task.

"In short, there are very few carry over pieces between the 2014 and 2015 power units."

[/spoiler]

So, it's because Ferrari and Renault couldn't or didn't want to use all 32 tokens before Melbourne? They they not have the processes in place to built, manufacture or buy the all of the pieces to change or did the design and development fall behind and Renault didn't want to introduce parts that would need more revisions, wasting tokens?

[McG]

Why are they using tokens before the engine is homogilated? My pea brain is finding it hard to follow this. Can't wait for Ted or Martin to explain it all.

Why can't they bring the new 2015 engine with all the new stuff and keep the tokens for upgrades during the season?

[frosty125]

Why are they using tokens before the engine is homogilated? My pea brain is finding it hard to follow this. Can't wait for Ted or Martin to explain it all.

Why can't they bring the new 2015 engine with all the new stuff and keep the tokens for upgrades during the season?

Because the changes will be made in the year 2015 and the point of reference is the engine currently homologated.

[TAG]

In a nutshell the entirety of the engine freeze/unfreeze debacle comes down to the highlighted section below. Turns out it had nothing to do with stifling competition.
[spoiler]

GPUpdate Renault says it has made "fundamental changes" to its Formula 1 engine over the winter period, as it bids to close in on pacesetters Mercedes.

Engine manufacturers are permitted to modify up to 48 per cent of their power units for the 2015 season, and can spread updates throughout the campaign.

Renault has used the majority of the permitted 32 development tokens ahead of the opening race in Australia, leaving a "modest" allocation for the rest of the season.

"We have made some fundamental changes to gain performance and reliability," said Rob White, who is now Renault Sport's Chief Technical Officer.

"We have upgraded every system and subsystem, with items that will give the most performance prioritised.

"The principal changes involve the internal combustion engine, turbocharger and battery.

"The ICE will have a new combustion chamber, exhaust system concept and variable trumpets, as permitted by the 2015 regulations.

"The compressor is more efficient, while the energy recovery systems are able to deal with more severe usage.

"The 2014 unit was already well placed in its centre of gravity, however we have tidied up the packaging to give greater ease of integration into the chassis.

"Additionally many systems and functions have been rationalized and simplified to further ease the task.

"In short, there are very few carry over pieces between the 2014 and 2015 power units."

[/spoiler]

So, it's because Ferrari and Renault couldn't or didn't want to use all 32 tokens before Melbourne? They they not have the processes in place to built, manufacture or buy the all of the pieces to change or did the design and development fall behind and Renault didn't want to introduce parts that would need more revisions, wasting tokens?

A combination of the amount of time couple with the restrictive use of tokens. 32 tokens wasn't enough to do everything they wanted could do. That's why an "interim" deal was Ferrari and Horner asking for additional tokens to be used up front in conjunction with the 32 tokens, in lieu of in season development. Merc came back and offered something like 5 additional tokens, but they were asking for 12 (going by recollection here).

Even as far back as the August break last year Renault said they wouldn't use up all of the tokens because it didn't make sense as they needed more tokens than the 32 total to make the changes they wanted to make.

[PlatinumZealot]

There is no additional tokens.

You can use them whenever you want, and you can spend tokens an item more than once (as long as that item is not frozen) but you do not get any additional tokens. Once those upgraded parts are used in a race session their corresponding tokens are officially spent. That is my understanding anyway.

[Manoah2u]

Lol I've never seen someone care so much about votes and yet be consistently wrong but being so sure of being correct.

Judge much, do you?

actually i have nowhere stated i was sure i was correct

anyway never mind.