Formula One's Engine Crisis

[dans79]

Youve already gotten lost.

I have always been referring to your WWE comment and the fact that real racing is not lost for spec series. Stay on point if youre going to have a discussion.

And i fully believe you have no clue what an analogy is or what the WWE is.

You're the one who seems incapable of understanding that my comment wasn't a slight against spec series, but one that is critical of rule changes in the hopes of altering future results, because someone doesn't like the current results.

You also seem to have forgotten how many rules were introduced to limit RBRs aero strengths. But thats off topic.

I didn't forget anything, nor did I say any of those rule changes where OK.

[sgth0mas]

Explain in detail how the rule changes are like WWE. Wait...nevermind dont waste your time...you still wont get it.

[dans79]

Explain in detail how the rule changes are like WWE. Wait...nevermind dont waste your time...you still wont get it.

I have like 3 times, you're the one being obtuse and not getting it.

[FoxHound]

You also seem to have forgotten how many rules were introduced to limit RBRs aero strengths. But thats off topic.

Limit maybe, but freeze entirely? Never.

It's also somewhat poignant that new start procedures, fuel flow measurements, in season token development and additional tokens have been introduced to try limit Mercedes.

Imagine doing that with frozen aero.

[dans79]

It's also somewhat poignant that new start procedures, fuel flow measurements, in season token development and additional tokens have been introduced to try limit Mercedes.

Don't forget about the FRIC ban......

[PlatinumZealot]

I hope RedBull withdraws. Someone will buy the teams, and everything will continue as before, minus Mateschitz and Marko.

That would actually be an improvement, methinks.

I thought about this. An improvement in what way is the question, and for whom? From Ferrari's and Mercedes' point of view if funding and key technical people are still there, then the RedBull chassis is still a threat and no engines will be offered. Situation remains the same. From Milton Keyne's point of view, if RedBull pulls out they might be left reeling from that huge cash withdrawal and the performance withers over the course of the season. Situation more palatable for Ferrari/Merc. But it is all dependent on how potent that chassis will remain after the pull out...

[FoxHound]

Well if TJ13 is correct on this, Red Bull have secured an engine for 2016.
They will also develop the ERS, and co-own the intellectual property of the ICE to be developed by Ilien at Red Bull's building 9(Turbo, phil... where you at bruv)
In effect 2 development programmes will run parallel with Renault.
Badging is mooted as Infiniti.

The whole reason they played this game was so they could get co-ownership of the Intellectual property. As far as conduct goes, ... was it worth it?

Here's the piece anyway.

http://thejudge13.com/2015/11/05/exclus ... -for-2016/

[djos]

If that works it as claimed, that would be an amazing deal for RedBull racing as it gives them control over their own PU and they will no longer be tied down by Renault and their lack of commitment to development!

[FoxHound]

If that works it as claimed, that would be an amazing deal for RedBull racing as it gives them control over their own PU and they will no longer be tied down by Renault and their lack of commitment to development!

12 token upgrade a "lack of development"? Red Bull refused to take the engine for 2 races running.

[bill shoe]

Well if TJ13 is correct on this, Red Bull have secured an engine for 2016.
They will also develop the ERS, and co-own the intellectual property of the ICE to be developed by Ilien at Red Bull's building 9

Hope Mario Illien enjoys being publicly criticized.

[FoxHound]

Well if TJ13 is correct on this, Red Bull have secured an engine for 2016.
They will also develop the ERS, and co-own the intellectual property of the ICE to be developed by Ilien at Red Bull's building 9

Hope Mario Illien enjoys being publicly criticized.

Oh, he wouldn't hang around as Renault have done. I'd also add Renault have acted most graciously in this saga.
The deal has Bernie's finger prints on it, with Lotus historical payments used as a carrot to force the deal through.
Speculation sure, but can't be wide of the mark.

[djos]

If that works it as claimed, that would be an amazing deal for RedBull racing as it gives them control over their own PU and they will no longer be tied down by Renault and their lack of commitment to development!

12 token upgrade a "lack of development"? Red Bull refused to take the engine for 2 races running.

That took them how long... 10 months because by Renault's own admission they weren't sure how to progress.

Also how much extra power and reliability are they bringing, I've seen 1/10th of a second improved lap-time mentioned - what is the actual HP increase? 40HP of a rumored 80HP deficit to Mercedes?

[zeph]

Well if TJ13 is correct on this, Red Bull have secured an engine for 2016.
They will also develop the ERS, and co-own the intellectual property of the ICE to be developed by Ilien at Red Bull's building 9(Turbo, phil... where you at bruv)
In effect 2 development programmes will run parallel with Renault.
Badging is mooted as Infiniti.

The whole reason they played this game was so they could get co-ownership of the Intellectual property. As far as conduct goes, ... was it worth it?

Here's the piece anyway.

http://thejudge13.com/2015/11/05/exclus ... -for-2016/

Wow, so while I thought they were displaying an utter lack of common sense, it turns out they are über-shrewd political operators.
Never underestimate Christian Horner. That guy is always gonna come out ahead.

But if this is all true, it sort of makes me dislike RBR even more.

[bauc]

Well if this is true, than its great news for all F1.

O.T. Guys, how reliable is this TJ13 source? I haven't heard of this site before.

Thanks.

[Andres125sx]

When RBR beat Ferrari and Mercedes without the investment of engine R&D F1 was fine and none cared about the manufacturers wasting money on engine department to only be beated by a team that does not need that investment

But now if manufacturers can make the most of their investment F1 is in crisis... Sorry but I don´t see it that way. F1 is a motorsport, so companies investing in engine R&D need some return or they would stop investing.


If that´s what you want then let´s convert F1 into a spec series. Otherwise RBR must assume since they don´t invest in R&D they have a handicap. They were lucky enough in 2010-2013 to not suffer this handicap (thanks to the stupid engine freeze) and they make the most of that situation. None complained, but that couldn´t last long

By your argument why should a manufacturer supply any customer?

Would F1 been interesting with just 6 cars in 2014?

If manufacturers allow for customers then why should they be allowed to reject?

Manufacturers should supply customer teams for the same reason the do so in any other racing series

I´m not sure about the reason some of you think customers should get same engine than works teams. Can you point me to any top serie where that´s happening?

Even MotoGP, with satellite teams run by same teams, have A-spec and B-spec engines. None complained ever. That is racing, top teams fight with top teams, and midfielders fight with midfielders.

The weird thing is some team who don´t build their own material fighting with top teams, that´s the weird part in F1.


And if that TJ13 info is true it would be the most reasonable outcome, if you want to fight with top teams you must build your own material. Finally RBR got it.