2012 European GP - Valencia

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Diesel wrote:Just walk away, you're looking foolish now. In one sentance your saying Hamilton probably didn't have the grip to drive any other line, and in the next sentance your saying he should have made space to let Maldonado through, make up your mind.
I'm not foolish in the slightest. You don't have to make space in the corner you know. He could have let him go by in the braking zone. He didn't have to go charging in and defend himself in the corner, he could've made the decision to pressure Maldonado in the braking zone, goad him into making a serious mistake and running himself wide, while not tangling with him in the corner.

GrizzleBoy
GrizzleBoy
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Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 04:06

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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So to get things straight:

1. You acknowledge that what Lewis did is a legitimate racing move.

2. You maintain the opinion that Maldonado was in your own words "shoved" off the track as opposed to pushing for a gap that was not there due to the aforementioned legitimate racing move.

3. You however maintain the opinion that the move is "chicken**** racing"

4. Yet you supposedly maintain the opinion that you believe Lewis did nothing wrong in your eyes.

5. Except for the fact that you show you believe Lewis should have done x y or z instead.

lol

Where does it start and where does it begin?

Even if you start reading that list from point 4 and start again at the beginning you have an endless circle of backtracking and circular discussion which funny enough is exactly what is playing out in this thread.

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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GrizzleBoy wrote:So to get things straight:

1. You acknowledge that what Lewis did is a legitimate racing move.

2. You maintain the opinion that Maldonado was in your own words "shoved" off the track as opposed to pushing for a gap that was not there due to the aforementioned legitimate racing move.

3. You however maintain the opinion that the move is "chicken**** racing"

4. Yet you supposedly maintain the opinion that you believe Lewis did nothing wrong in your eyes.

5. Except for the fact that you show you believe Lewis should have done x y or z instead.

lol

Where does it start and where does it begin?

Even if you start reading that list from point 4 and start again at the beginning you have an endless circle of backtracking and circular discussion which funny enough is exactly what is playing out in this thread.
1. Yes. It is legitimate to defend your position. I have never said otherwise. If you would like to point me to a post where I said he did anything illegal, unjust, or malicious then be my guest. You will find it difficult though. Probably more difficult that when you hilariously said I previously made the statement that Maldonado should be handed positions and that Lewis shouldn't fight for it. (I'll save you the trouble, I finally say that below.)

2. Yes. I believe he was shoved off track due to Lewis having less ability to control his car because his tires were shot, and that he was defending his line. I believe he made a perfectly good attempt to defend his line, but his tires probably caused him to run wide and push Maldonado off track. I've never said he did anything malicious, and I've only said he should have been less vigorous about defending a position he had zero hope of keeping for the next 1 1/2 laps. Me repeating that obviously has no effect on your ability to understand it for some reason though.

4. Yes. Pushing people off track boundaries, maliciously, is chickenshit racing. You can take the corner for yourself, but when you use track boundaries to force someone to stop their overtaking attempt you are being a chickenshit. Track boundaries can be anything from a white line to a ten foot high concrete wall. Here it was a white line. Many have pissed and moaned about Maldonado was all four wheels off the track and should've yielded (I don't disagree with that), but at the same time say nothing of Lewis blowing right past Rosberg and actually succeed at passing him in Bahrain. That move was explicitly illegal. If one rule is applied to one driver, it applies to all. That's all I'm saying.

5. I believe that in the best interest of his championship, he should have let Maldonado past. Not because I think Lewis shouldn't fight, but because he should know when to get his claws out and when to take what he can get. He will not win the championship fighting tooth and nail. Mark my words, him saying you always fight for every position will lose him this championship. Discretion is the better part of valor. Both Lewis and Maldonado have to learn that. I've never said he did anything wrong, malicious, or illegal. You keep trying to get me to confess something for some reason, you don't have the decency to even tell me what you accuse me of, and I've repeatedly said exactly the opposite of what you think I want.

If anyone is running in circles it's you. You keep accusing me of being biased, having some secret reason for having a problem with this incident (I'm guessing you think I'm racist and I'm probably right), and you keep asking me the same questions over and over despite the fact that I've explained the answers to you multiple times. I'm done going back and forth about this, I've stated and replied to you far too many times for it to apparently sink in. How many times someone has to outright say what they mean and you completely ignore it is a waste of my time. It's like talking to a wall.

Red Schneider
Red Schneider
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Joined: 17 May 2012, 22:43
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Thank God for some unreliability for once. Maybe I sound like an asshole but I think if there are no breakdowns, they might as well call it GP1.

Engine reg changes can't get here fast enough.

GrizzleBoy
GrizzleBoy
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Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 04:06

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Ray wrote: Pushing people off track boundaries, maliciously, is chickenshit racing. You can take the corner for yourself, but when you use track boundaries to force someone to stop their overtaking attempt you are being a chickenshit. Track boundaries can be anything from a white line to a ten foot high concrete wall. Here it was a white line. Many have pissed and moaned about Maldonado was all four wheels off the track and should've yielded (I don't disagree with that), but at the same time say nothing of Lewis blowing right past Rosberg and actually succeed at passing him in Bahrain. That move was explicitly illegal. If one rule is applied to one driver, it applies to all. That's all I'm saying.
1.
"Maliciously"?

Using track boundaries to prevent overtaking moves = "chicken****" racing?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but has that not basically been part of the staple for preventing overtaking since racing began?

So pretty much every "closing the door" racing move is chicken**** racing on account of the fact that if there were no track boundaries, the attacking car could just drive past as they pleased as there would be no door (aka the space between the defending car and the track boundary to close?

2.
Explain to me how people complaining about a car rejoining the track through the side of another car to attempt an overtake overtake and another car rejoining the track in a safe manner are supposed to be the same thing? If Hamilton rejoined through Rosbergs Merc and caused a racing incident because he was being dangerous, you can bet your rear end there would be uproar all over the place and we'd be discussing it all the way to Silverstone.

Not to mention that one was at high speed and one was at road car speed.

Its not the fact that Maldonado tried to pass while off track that leads to the complaints, its the fact that his re-entry was dangerous.
Last edited by GrizzleBoy on 27 Jun 2012, 02:12, edited 2 times in total.

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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GrizzleBoy wrote:
1. "Maliciously"?

2. Explain to me how people complaining about a car rejoining the track through the side of another car to attempt an overtake overtake and another car rejoining the track in a safe manner are supposed to be the same thing? If Hamilton rejoined through Rosbergs Merc and caused a racing incident because he was being dangerous, you can bet your rear end there would be uproar all over the place and we'd be discussing it all the way to Silverstone.

Not to mention that one was at high speed and one was at road car speed.

Its not the fact that Maldonado tried to pass while off track that leads to the complaints, its the fact that his re-entry was dangerous.
1. Yes. He didn't get into it with Maldonado for the sole purpose of taking him out because of anger or desire to hit another competitor. Here is the definition of malicious and Lewis did nothing malicious in his defensive move. I don't think Maldonado did anything malicious either, it was just a stupid move and dangerous.

2. I'm not saying they are the same thing. I'm saying that if Maldonado is being called out for leaving the track and coming back on to try and overtake it's the same thing Lewis did in Bahrain. Lewis didn't hit anyone, Maldonado did, but the same regulation was broken. The regulation someone else posted states you can't leave the confines of the boundaries of the track, and rejoin in an unsafe manner. Maldonado did exactly that, and I've never stated he didn't. Again, you are insinuating that I feel the contact inititated by Maldonado wasn't dangerous. I've never said it wasn't, and I've never said he shouldn't be punished for it.

The very same regulation says that you can't leave the track boundaries and gain an advantage. Lewis did that, he gained a position on Rosberg. Speed is irrelevant to that regulation because it states that you can't come back on track in an unsafe manner or gain an advantage. Lewis did it in Spa on Kimi a few years back, and was wrongly stripped of a well earned win. The real problem is the application of punishment, it isn't consistent. Both broke the same rule, but Maldonado took someone out and deserves a much harser punishment for it. I can't remember if Lewis got a penalty for overtaking Rosberg off the track, but if it were me giving out punishments, it would be a gross misjudgement to give Lewis a punishment any more harsh than requiring that he give Rosberg his place back. And like Spa, he would be able to take it right back. That's more than fair in my eyes.

zyphro
zyphro
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Joined: 02 May 2012, 16:33

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Red Schneider wrote:Thank God for some unreliability for once. Maybe I sound like an asshole but I think if there are no breakdowns, they might as well call it GP1.

Engine reg changes can't get here fast enough.
I agree.

I can't remember the last time we witnessed a more action packed race.

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Surely Malaysia 2012 and Canada 2011 count? :P
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razorbum
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Joined: 26 Jun 2012, 17:47

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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I think that PM was trying to push Lewis away even after going off the track. It felt that way to me. I rewatched that section countless times.

The moment PM went off track, he should have slowed down and watch for a safe time to rejoin the track. In his mind, I bet he wanted to rejoin side by side so that he can overtake after he's back on track because he has better traction.

In conclusion, PM was just impatient and reckless. Hamilton did nothing wrong. He defended his spot well a few times by being superior in the corners before that. Even if he overtook, he'll have to give the position back. I guess it was just the racing blood in them that threw away all logic and rule and fight for line.

If there wasn't a crash, this would have been beautiful racing where there's a real fight for line and position. I still dislike PM though; he's involved in too many crashes.

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razorbum
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Joined: 26 Jun 2012, 17:47

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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zyphro wrote:
Red Schneider wrote:Thank God for some unreliability for once. Maybe I sound like an asshole but I think if there are no breakdowns, they might as well call it GP1.

Engine reg changes can't get here fast enough.
I agree.

I can't remember the last time we witnessed a more action packed race.
It was not just action packed. It was beautiful racing man.

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ArchAngel
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Joined: 15 Feb 2010, 11:22

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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The protagonists should've just walked away, taken whatever points they could, and lived to fight another day. (Talking about those arguing for/against HAM/MAL.) Sooooo... Moving on. :mrgreen:

BTW, what happened to Rosberg's race? How did he nearly end out of the points (save for the late-race surge on new tyres) from P6 on the starting grid, when his teammate made it all the way to the podium from P12?

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razorbum
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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ArchAngel wrote:The protagonists should've just walked away, taken whatever points they could, and lived to fight another day. (Talking about those arguing for/against HAM/MAL.) Sooooo... Moving on. :mrgreen:

BTW, what happened to Rosberg's race? How did he nearly end out of the points (save for the late-race surge on new tyres) from P6 on the starting grid, when his teammate made it all the way to the podium from P12?
In the heat of racing and male ego, I think they just lost some logic at that moment.

kris
kris
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Joined: 09 Mar 2011, 11:31

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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ArchAngel wrote:...
BTW, what happened to Rosberg's race? How did he nearly end out of the points (save for the late-race surge on new tyres) from P6 on the starting grid, when his teammate made it all the way to the podium from P12?
Read somewhere that he was put on a One-pit-stop strategy, which really didn't work out. He managed to salvage some points by doing a late 2nd Pit stop.

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raymondu999
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Yep. See Vettel in Canada.
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Mandrake
Mandrake
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Ray I really appreciate your efforts to show the HAM / MAL case in all its details! Especially your screengrabs from a couple of pages ago are brilliant and show exactly what Hamilton did.

If he ran wide due to lack of grip (he braked late to fend off MAL, so he didn't make the turn with his tires, that's what I believe) or if he intentionally tried to defend by pushing MAL off track does not matter. THe fact is that he did it.

The rest is just a result of HAM not giving MAL an inch of space when MAL returned on track. By the way, on the overhead shots you can clearly see how he just misses the slowdown bump in the second part of the chicane. Had he driven over that he might have sliced HAMs head off.....

But I think you should leave it now, there are too many british members / blind Hamilton supporters here (as all the other HAM discussions show) to have an objective argument about something that happened in the race.

Ohh and to all those referring to the Stewards' decision: When it fits you, you say "look, the Stewards agree with that it was MALs fault", but when it doesn't you just complain about their stupidity.......