Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Blackout]

So what possibilities remain
-undersized centrifuge compressor
-double wheel 'dual boost' compressor
-mixed flow compessor
?

[TAG]

With the lack of clear evidence, one thing I noticed during the weekend, when Jenson's car died there was a sound of a turbine spinning down. The McLaren have always sounded different with a considerable more brap brap brap sound to them but this sound at the end was clearly different and may be their compressor spooling down. The point is, I've not heard this before on any other PU under similar circumstances so they are doing something markedly different.

[PlatinumZealot]

It is an axial compressor in the V of the engine.

https://twitter.com/ScarbsF1/status/590237555616051201

Forgive me for being HIGHLY skeptical about what scarbs is saying. All because of 1 simple reason. No single stage axial compressor that is commercially available can even get near the kinds of compression ratios needed for this application, especially not in the changing conditions presented in F1 of constantly running at different tracks at different barometric pressures, different temperatures etc. Until somebody can either A. show me a picture clearly showing that it is an axial compressor or B. show me a design that allows such high compression ratios in these conditions, I'll continue to not believe it.

In one of the pictures I think I see what looks like the diffuser and circular pipe around the turbocharger compressor, a characteristic of centrifugal compressors.

Question to those who are savvy with the regs. Would a double sided compressor be allowed by the rules. Technically it is still only one stage of compression but simply with 2 inlets to the turbocharger compressor. If this is allowed then it would be a way to drastically downsize the size of the compressor.

Edit: I can see the possibility of a mixed flow compressor. Don't know to much about it though.

Thank you! Some common sense here. I do not normally defend Trinidadians... but I have to defend this.

I also think a double sided compressor might* be legal.. but a double sided compressor can be said to be two compressors.. it is all semantic. But yes, as the saying goes in formula 1, to the letter of the rules!

[Jolle]

With the lack of clear evidence, one thing I noticed during the weekend, when Jenson's car died there was a sound of a turbine spinning down. The McLaren have always sounded different with a considerable more brap brap brap sound to them but this sound at the end was clearly different and may be their compressor spooling down. The point is, I've not heard this before on any other PU under similar circumstances so they are doing something markedly different.

For me it sounded very similar to the Ferrari engines in last years winter testing when they shut down the ICE in the pit lane.

Jensons engine cut was prob when the turbine was spinning much faster then idle, what you normally have when you turn off the power.

[Blackout]

The Merc produces a similar sound here (love it)

[PlatinumZealot]

OK... After anaylysing the photo some more...

The turbo is not likely a dual boost. because the dual boost turbo while having smaller internals is actually bigger on the compressor side. Also dual boost turbos operate at higher rotational speeds. So though there are transient benefits to the dual sided compressor with axial turbine... I am not to confident that Honda is using such technology... we would hear the difference and so far the engine seems to sound similar to the others.

I was thinking that the compressor could be a roots type screw.. but that is a bit on the crazy side... so scrap that.

Ok looking again on the photo...The intake piping looks very big. It does not seem taper off fast enough for the compressor inlet to be that close to it. I do not want to admit it, but I think the intake pipe runs under the intake plenum to the compressor which is at the back of the engine, now. The compressor would just be very tiny if it were between cylinders 1&4 (Cast into the engine perhaps?) but that is a very risky thing to do. The only safe setup I can see is a setup similar to Ferrari 2014(?) with the MUGH between the compressor and the turbine.

Again, I wished that the engine was similar to Mercedes... but In fact I conceed that it looks similar to Ferrari 2014 and this is probably Honda's VERSION #1 engine. I believe there might be some very big visual changes in the coming months. at least I wish there are. Just have to wait and see.

[dren]

So what possibilities remain
-undersized centrifuge compressor
-double wheel 'dual boost' compressor
-mixed flow compessor
?

Maybe it is indeed a single stage axial compressor. I'd leave that option in, even though it is unlikely.

[dren]

Looking at the pictures closer, you can see the gold pipe turn towards the right (towards the V) and then it likely goes down. In that shot you can see light at the other side of the V, there is a lot of open area in the top of the V. The compressor is likely sitting as low as possible in the V. It would be interesting if the compressor and MGUH were cast with the block.

[frosty125]

OK... After anaylysing the photo some more...

The turbo is not likely a dual boost. because the dual boost turbo while having smaller internals is actually bigger on the compressor side. Also dual boost turbos operate at higher rotational speeds. So though there are transient benefits to the dual sided compressor with axial turbine... I am not to confident that Honda is using such technology... we would hear the difference and so far the engine seems to sound similar to the others.

I was thinking that the compressor could be a roots type screw.. but that is a bit on the crazy side... so scrap that.

Ok looking again on the photo...The intake piping looks very big. It does not seem taper off fast enough for the compressor inlet to be that close to it. I do not want to admit it, but I think the intake pipe runs under the intake plenum to the compressor which is at the back of the engine, now. The compressor would just be very tiny if it were between cylinders 1&4 (Cast into the engine perhaps?) but that is a very risky thing to do. The only safe setup I can see is a setup similar to Ferrari 2014(?) with the MUGH between the compressor and the turbine.

Again, I wished that the engine was similar to Mercedes... but In fact I conceed that it looks similar to Ferrari 2014 and this is probably Honda's VERSION #1 engine. I believe there might be some very big visual changes in the coming months. at least I wish there are. Just have to wait and see.

The Ferrari PU actually has some packaging benefits though with a water-air intercooler mounted in the V. Seems like a poor packaging design to just go for a conventional setup with the intake going through the V . Of course we will find out when when we see the rear of the PU. Ferrari have also shown that a smaller compressor can work well. Still think it looks like MGU-H and Compressor are in the V.

Also if you note the plenum, and variable intakes are raised towards the front of the engine why do that other than to make space for something bulky.

[Fer.Fan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118626

[hairy_scotsman]

Craig Scarborough @ScarbsF1
@alo_pumpa I can't be 100% sure. it still could be a mixed flow. but it would hard to package one of those into the space

[stevesingo]

Alonso onboard during race .
http://rutube.ru/video/d1b7371c625e5362 ... f11478039/

I have an interesting observation regarding the PU performance on the straight.

At 10:00 ALO enters the back straight and accelerates through the gears. When he selects 8th at 297kph the telemetry is still showing wide open throttle (WOT) and the car continues to accelerate up to 304kph. Then at 10:13, still showing WOT the car loses speed down to 298kph before ALO lifts off WOT.

Could this be the ES SOC being fully depleted? Any thoughts?

[FW17]

The compressor would just be very tiny if it were between cylinders 1&4 (Cast into the engine perhaps?) but that is a very risky thing to do.

Is it possible to measure the space between the Cylinder banks from these images (both are of 90 degree V8's)

The bore was 97mm in the Honda image (Hopefully Cut at the Cylinder Center Line)

[aleks_ader]

The compressor would just be very tiny if it were between cylinders 1&4 (Cast into the engine perhaps?) but that is a very risky thing to do.

Is it possible to measure the space between the Cylinder banks from these images (both are of 90 degree V8's)

The bore was 97mm in the Honda image (Hopefully Cut at the Cylinder Center Line)


http://www.k20a.org/uploadnew/formulaon ... ci_neu.jpg

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp-c ... uphv8a.jpg

You must get one with trubo and then you could do "proportional" guess. That it could work. Anyway in block cast solution would it mke a bit more tigty yes, but will it blend?

Bv. nice idea...

[ringo]

I think Scarbs should be a bit more careful with his conclusions, the other day he said compressor was in front of the engine.

I agree with you, but to be fair to him, he does use words that suggest it may be so. He never really concludes that that' the way the engine is.
I guess it's a journo's job to strike while the iron is hot and sort out the facts later. It gets the website more hits that way.
He wont go to prison if he is wrong, so why not knee jerk the new theories?
Chances are it could be right, so it's a gamble worth taking i guess.

As for axial compressor, i have no clue for sure about that. For all we know it can be a screw type compressor commonly used in a super charger, but engineered to work with a high speed turbine.

I will keep an eye for more pictures to give a definite answer for myself. but to how things are looking, i still see centrifugal compressor, but very flat and painted black.