Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PlatinumZealot]

Wouldn't it be interesting if they used indy car for engine testing...

[Chicane]

When asked by Motorsport.com about the progress in curing the vibration issues, Hasegawa said: “I don’t think the drivers agree, but I think we have improved [the situation] since the beginning of the season.

“We improved gradually but it is still not completely solved of course. So with the next update I would like to solve clearly.”

When asked to firm up the time frame of the upgraded engine, Hasegawa said: “We cannot tell you an exact date but here or at any grand prix. If we have the chance, we would like to update our engines.”

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... es-893162/

As article from a few days quotes Hasegawa saying they will test engine in BAH test and if good introduced it in Russia.
Now this saying no new engine until Monaco or Canada.

Who should we trust?

The Monaco or Canada is purely an assumption of the author. I always look at the actual quotes. Making sensationalistic and baseless assumptions is what media publications do these days.

Going by his actual quotes Hasegawa is clearly not committing to giving a date for the introduction of the upgraded power unit.

This is what he said when asked about the time frame of the upgraded engine.
“We cannot tell you an exact date but here or at any grand prix. If we have the chance, we would like to update our engines.”.

[godlameroso]

Well they have to introduce something for Barcelona, but may just be a stop gap measure that doesn't yield a significant improvement. Silverstone would be the next update, then Spa at the earliest, but likely around Singapore for final upgrade. Who knows how these things can turn out however. It may be sooner that we see them finally unlocking the potential in the power unit. You never know the engineers may have a eureka moment sooner, until then it'll be a slow iterative process.

[shady]

I have seen absolutely no evidence for the bolded portion above.

It is not semantics, instantaneous fuel flow rate/usage remains constant, that is the best way to evaluate these engines.

A race is longer than an hour... how much more proof do you need?

[PlatinumZealot]

The Monaco or Canada is purely an assumption of the author. I always look at the actual quotes. Making sensationalistic and baseless assumptions is what media publications do these days.

Going by his actual quotes Hasegawa is clearly not committing to giving a date for the introduction of the upgraded power unit.

This is what he said when asked about the time frame of the upgraded engine.
“We cannot tell you an exact date but here or at any grand prix. If we have the chance, we would like to update our engines.”.

Teams rarely reveal their update schedules. We should not expect Honda to it either.

[taperoo2k]

Well they have to introduce something for Barcelona, but may just be a stop gap measure that doesn't yield a significant improvement. Silverstone would be the next update, then Spa at the earliest, but likely around Singapore for final upgrade. Who knows how these things can turn out however. It may be sooner that we see them finally unlocking the potential in the power unit. You never know the engineers may have a eureka moment sooner, until then it'll be a slow iterative process.

I'm guessing the F1 journalists are expecting Honda to follow the usual upgrade pattern that you see during a season from other manufacturers/teams. I'd expect Honda will bring updates and tweaks to the track as and when they are ready. As for the big upgrades ? I'd want to have them ready to test on track in the first in season test. Sure Honda might get some bad headlines if things don't go as planned. But the data gathered will likely be worth it in the long run.

If there is a eureka moment to be had, it'll be getting everything singing together in harmony.

All I say about Joe Saward is that more often than not, he tends to be on the money. He can be a bit prickly at times, but he's a good journalist with good sources (sure he can be led up the garden path, it's F1 after all). If Honda has asked for outside help from say somebody like Mario Illien etc that has likely already started.

[ENGINE TUNER]

I have seen absolutely no evidence for the bolded portion above.

It is not semantics, instantaneous fuel flow rate/usage remains constant, that is the best way to evaluate these engines.

A race is longer than an hour... how much more proof do you need?

Proof of what? Yes the races are longer than an hour, they also don't use the throttle for 100% of the race. Were you trying to make a salient point or just trying to be a wise ass?

[Chicane]

The Monaco or Canada is purely an assumption of the author. I always look at the actual quotes. Making sensationalistic and baseless assumptions is what media publications do these days.

Going by his actual quotes Hasegawa is clearly not committing to giving a date for the introduction of the upgraded power unit.

This is what he said when asked about the time frame of the upgraded engine.
“We cannot tell you an exact date but here or at any grand prix. If we have the chance, we would like to update our engines.”.

Teams rarely reveal their update schedules. We should not expect Honda to it either.

Which was exactly my point. I was just quoting what he said. My issue was with media publications assuming a lot of thing to come up sensational headlines bypassing the actual quotes.

[Chicane]

Honda brought out a revised turbocharger and MGU-H for Vandoorne when the earlier parts could have been easily used. The older components are in pool available for reuse when necessary. They are are going to roll out upgrades as and when they are ready instead of waiting for the usual engine change of five races per power unit. The older components can be mixed and matched with new ones also the older components can be exclusively used on Fridays.

[daverdfw]

Wouldn't it be interesting if they used indy car for engine testing...

not sure the DW12 chassis can hold all of the ERS equipment. I suppose Honda would modify the chassis enough. Run it at like Twin Ring Motegi? Who would ever know?

[PlatinumZealot]

The combustion side could be evaluated without the ERS I suspect you could artificially load the compressor to emmulate the MGUH generator mode. It would be great to fine tune the combustion.

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=dren post_id=690851 time=1492083140 user_id=9550]
[quote="Tommy Cookers" post_id=690816 time=1492075070 user_id=13644]
the Wright energy balance shows unaccessed chemical energy level due to 'incomplete combustion' at 10% of the declared exhaust energy level
so is there (how wouldn't there be ?) further combustion in the exhaust system pre-turbine ?
an aspect of the turbine's activity that is unrecognised by our physical thermodynamics ?
chemical thermodynamics etc presumably explains how methane is being generated from fuel (as well as the carbon monoxide that we expect)
and what happens to both these combustible gases in the hot oxygen-rich mix pre-turbine that we call exhaust
some catalytic effect might be useful here ?
unlike the Wright, F1 uses a high mean exhaust pressure, the high load reduces choked flow % following EVO and better conserves useable energy
they may run at true backpressure -dP to improve PU power (the lean-run 'heat dilution' engines w/o recovery all seem to use .5 bar BP)[/quote]

With TJI, wouldn't the combustion process take place quicker with less down stream combustion?
Higher mean exhaust pressures allow for more mass flow to the turbine. Way back when, wasn't the consensus that it was roughly a 1:1 crank to recovery ratio?[/quote]

F1 is asking combustion to be 5x as fast as Wright was, and far leaner
the methane might be related to the high aromatic fuel, but F1 has also a lot of scope fuelwise
fwiw the NACA backpressure work 'way back when' was with slightly rich mixture

sorry, but my old computer (already updated to the limit) won't work properly with quotes on the new system since Mar 18th

[shady]

I have seen absolutely no evidence for the bolded portion above.

It is not semantics, instantaneous fuel flow rate/usage remains constant, that is the best way to evaluate these engines.

A race is longer than an hour... how much more proof do you need?

Proof of what? Yes the races are longer than an hour, they also don't use the throttle for 100% of the race. Were you trying to make a salient point or just trying to be a wise ass?

the cars would only run for an hour and 3 minutes.

edit: apologies all around.

[godlameroso]

This isn't the place for this. If you have issues with a user, you can PM each other to call each other names, and argue about who's wrong or right, don't pollute this thread please.

[Pierce89]

Wouldn't it be interesting if they used indy car for engine testing...

Wouldn't be a bad idea. The current Indycar is proper HIGH DOWNFORCE open wheer. I was surprised to hear that current Indycars make f1 levels of downforce just a lower efficiency.