2012 European GP - Valencia

[raymondu999]

Let's move it to another channel - maybe it's the front jackman's fault for not giving Lewis more of a time gap to Maldonado?

[razorbum]

Ray I really appreciate your efforts to show the HAM / MAL case in all its details! Especially your screengrabs from a couple of pages ago are brilliant and show exactly what Hamilton did.

If he ran wide due to lack of grip (he braked late to fend off MAL, so he didn't make the turn with his tires, that's what I believe) or if he intentionally tried to defend by pushing MAL off track does not matter. THe fact is that he did it.

The rest is just a result of HAM not giving MAL an inch of space when MAL returned on track. By the way, on the overhead shots you can clearly see how he just misses the slowdown bump in the second part of the chicane. Had he driven over that he might have sliced HAMs head off.....

But I think you should leave it now, there are too many british members / blind Hamilton supporters here (as all the other HAM discussions show) to have an objective argument about something that happened in the race.

Ohh and to all those referring to the Stewards' decision: When it fits you, you say "look, the Stewards agree with that it was MALs fault", but when it doesn't you just complain about their stupidity.......

I think I'm not a blind Hamilton supporter. I think all we saw was hot blooded racing with aggressive but legal move from both parties (until PM rejoined the track)

Let's leave it there shall we?

[e30ernest]

The rest is just a result of HAM not giving MAL an inch of space when MAL returned on track.

I don't quite understand this part. From my understanding, it was Maldonado's responsibility to find space in re-entering the track and not Hamilton's. Maldonado was solely responsible for finding a safe way to re-enter the track, and his failure to do so was the cause of his penalty. I believe Hamilton was right on holding the line the moment Maldonado went off.

I'm not arguing whether it was right for Hamilton to push him off track (deliberately or not), just the part where people seem to think he should have done something to let Maldonado back in.

[spacer]

Oh come one guys... this thread is starting to look like many of the 2011 race threads...

I'm actually surprised, because; the Vettel+RB8 combination was literally murdering the entire field up to the SC, Alonso drove one hell of a race, Grosjean put in yet another solid drive and would have taken another podium in what can reasonably be called his rookie season (including a beautiful pass on lewis), Schumi finally got some of the luck he's been deserving for quite some time, and yet all this thread has been banging on about for the last 30 pages is another HAM vs XXX accident....

[Ray]

Finally got to see the BBC coverage. The race intro was great because it solidifies my opinion that Lee McKenzie is a flat out gorgeous woman with a heavenly voice, and she's got such a great rapport with all the drivers. What a great F1 journalist. Her ride with Vettel was outstanding, the part where she was urging him to do something illegal was fantastic. Of course Vettel and his humor never failed. Him asking what old York was like is classic Vettel.

This race was the only race at Valencia that has been even remotely interesting. From Vettel crushing the field, Alonso showing again that he's the class of the field in every area, and actual racing going on made for a fantastic race. I still think its a waste of a perfectly good spot on the limited race schedule though. It boggles the mind that places like this get to keep their spot while Bernie continues to kick Spa in the balls for more money. Valencia should be dropped immediately if it ever comes down to which of those two stays. I can't stand Bernie and his ridiculous fees. This was a fantastic race, but this track just sucks. Hopefully Silverstone will be just as good. Though, the new layout still confuses the hell out of me. Even after 100+ laps in F1 2011 I never really know what's coming up while on the parts of the old circuit.

[Gerhard Berger]

on the Hamilton Maldonando incident. It's true that Hamilton ran him out of road (though this seems to be acceptable in F1 these days). Not sure it was intentional from Hamilton because he was very fair when Grosjean tried to pass him at the same corner and gave him enough room. Can't feel sorry for Maldonando though, given the way he ran Kimi out of road earlier in the race.

[SiLo]

Probably best to understand what the guys are saying before trying to poo poo it. I'll try and spell it out:

1. Maldonado tries to overtake Hamilton, but Hamilton holds the racing line with Maldonado running wide off track.
2. Maldonado tries to take the inside line over the kerb but this time Hamilton gives him room and lets him past by moving to the right of the track to avoid him.
3. Maldonado drives to the end of the race in third position but McLaren protest the overtake.
4. The stewards give him a 20 second time penalty after the race for overtaking whilst running off the track thus giving the place back to Hamilton (presuming he didn't get passed by anyone else).

Personally I don't think Hamilton could have seen Maldonado from the angle he came back on to the track to hit him, so I doubt he could have done this. But it is an interesting suggestion.

^^Pulled from the Maldonado thread XD

This is very similar to what happened between Hamilton and Raikkonen at Spa. Personally I think Maldonado should of realised and given up at that particular corner, he was going to get him easily anyway.

[strad]

red mist

[SeijaKessen]

Hopefully Silverstone will be just as good. Though, the new layout still confuses the hell out of me. Even after 100+ laps in F1 2011 I never really know what's coming up while on the parts of the old circuit.

Glad to see I am not alone on that.

I have zero recall of most of that circuit outside of a couple of spots.

[Gerhardsa]

Sounds like talking in circles tbh.

I could just as well say that there was no door open for Maldonado either (due to the fact that pursuing his manoeuvre took him off the track) and that Hamiltons position was the cause of that.

There was no space that Maldonado could have driven into to, in order to complete the overtake.

It is the role of the overtaking driver to drive into space, not to wait for space to be made available to them.

That's just silly.

That is silly, cause the rules state that when being overlapped by an overtaking car (half a cars length I think), both drivers should at all time leave at least a cars width of space on the track for each other, on corner entry as well as exit.

EDIT: One can get technical when going with "overtake on the ousite of a corner" etc etc, but the fact of the matter is as stated in other replies. If the cars are alongside each other, they should not drive each other off the track. They can squeeze each oter..sure, but the cars width should be kept. But, then again, as stated above, pushing other cars off the track seems to be the norm these days, and goes without penalty

[Gerhard Berger]

I'd say these vast run off areas have contributed to it. Drivers have no problem running someone off the road when they know they will only have to go over the run off area and can rejoin relatively easily.

[andartop]

^
Well, maybe now some drivers might realize that even though there are vast run off areas it might be worth sparing a thought about where the guy just pushed out of the track might rejoin!!!!

[zyphro]

Surely Malaysia 2012 and Canada 2011 count?

Kinda, but, it was nothing on the level of Valencia imo.

[bhall]

Well, maybe now some drivers might realize that even though there are vast run off areas it might be worth sparing a thought about where the guy just pushed out of the track might rejoin!!!!

And exactly who is being pushed off-track is also worth consideration. Right or wrong, you can't play rough with a driver like Maldonado and expect that to be the end of it, because he's clearly shown he has no qualms about responding in kind.

[SiLo]

Did anyone think Senna's penalty was unfair? (Think it was Senna) basically the car that went to take the normal line into a corner, clipped the front wing of the car behind? If I'm wrong let me know.