2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[ME4ME]

The ‘good and bad’ reason Piastri is sure he can win after three near-misses

https://www.racefans.net/2024/07/13/the ... ar-misses/

Must say Piastri has done a very respectable job lately. Last year in his rookie season, for his junior track record and all the hype I found his initial 6 month with the team not that inspiring. He was a bit anonymous. Clearly took the time to get up to speed without making many headlines. But now, he has properly turned up his speed and performances. He has already started to challenge Norris at times, but I suspect its only a matter of time before Mclaren will be in a position where they have to manage their drivers fighting over the win and making some tough calls. Lets hope Piastri is allowed to win, rather than being sacrificed for the benefit of Norris..

[mwillems]

Seems like Will Joseph has some burner accounts or some fans around here.
Go back and do the research, there are many videos with the entire team radio over the weekend, of many of them over the last few years.
He is sub-par at best. The data is the data, and how you present it is VERY important.
I am an engineer myself( Not an F1 team), we can do a lot, but at the end of the line there is one person presenting the information to the driver, in this case, Joseph.
The cover Ham/Ver conversation was the nail in the coffin, amaturish way of presenting information, and I am being generous.
He is not THE probalem, he is an integral part of it.
And again, it's all opinions, we are entitled to have different ones, no reason getting too emotional about it.

I'm neither a fan nor not a fan.

You're the one proposing why he needs to go, put links to the conversations and give us the reasoning for them. Happy to go over it, but not for unsubstantiated heresay.

It's not for you to say what you like and others have to prove you wrong, you have to put something foward to back up what you say.

But without examples or anything to back it up, then it's just a sour opinion with no weight.

I heard the team radio, you're misguided if from that you think Will Joseph was leading the team.

[ME4ME]

I heard the team radio, you're misguided if from that you think Will Joseph was leading the team.

I think for a lot of people that was the issue; he wasn't.

Should've stuck to what they knew was their trump card, a set of mediums which neither Mercedes nor Red Bull had. Perfect for the remaining laps and conditions. The discussion about compounds was both unnecessary and unclear in its delivery.

EDIT: There is some irony in the fact that as well faulting Will Joseph for not playing that trump card, he was surely also partly responsible for having that option in the first place. That goes not only for Silverstone but also for Austria. Got to see both sides of the coin..

[mwillems]

What coin? The coin you present as an example, where Will Joseph is suddenly not following the advice of strategists and agreeing a way forward with Stella and the rest of the team?

That coin doesn't exist, it's made up.

The big man is next to him, who didn't want to overrule the strategy team. Explain why Will Joseph trumps Stella and others, please?

Important to note, the only team radio made public is that between team and driver, not internal team comms.

Edit: If you want a name for who can alter the culture to get people making better decisions in crunch times in race, the name is Stella, not Joseph. The past few races at the very top have been his first mis-step in the progress of Mclaren, one which I'm sure he'll get on top of and one that is totally forgivable, particularly given everything he has done for the team.

[Seerix]

Just some more data to take into account.
Lap 38:
Tom: Competitors cars do not have medium. Currently we think medium is the right tyre. 15 laps to go.
Oscar: Yes, yes, it's the best.
Lap 39: HAM/VER/PIA pit

So they either thought MED is best for Oscar, but soft for Lando, or they changed their mind from MED to soft after seeing HAM stopped for soft.

[mwillems]

Yeah everyone knows they picked the wrong tyre.

[PapayaFan481]

All the people blaming Will should go read/listen to Bernice Collins' book, How To Win A Grand Prix, to get an idea of just how complex the decision making process can be.

I do agree that Will could be more decisive at times - but I also think he can still improve. If he doesn't, then the team needs to look at other options, but that can be a discussion for the off-season.

I still think there'd be some benefit to trying to bring in someone from Merc or Red Bull to oversee the race engineers though. Someone like Bono with experience of winning titles.

[venkyhere]

See what Lando does on his outlap with the S he had - he is gunning it like anything, while Lewis on his S and Max on his H were far gentler. Lando's outlap was 3-4s faster than them. This is with the extra 2s he lost not stopping properly in the pitbox. That means Lando was hammering the tyre 6s faster than Lewis and Max in his outlap. That's where he lost his tyres. The decision by pitwall wasn't bad (to go for used S) and it was not a case of "Lewis made the S last more than what it was capable" - none of that. Lando chewed his tyres and paid the price.

You can see in the data you have produced that the track was evolving at a rate of a couple of seconds per lap by that point as it dried up. Lando stopped one lap later and his outlap was 2.549 seconds faster than Hamilton and 3.471 seconds faster than Max, who's hard tyres would be slower to warm up. Both of their outlaps were one lap before.

All well within tolerance of an evolving track and I don't think indicative of anything else, in my opinion.

add +2.xx to those numbers because that was the duration spent extra, vide bad positioning in the pitbox and was compensated by Lando in his outlap. That's why I think he overdrove the tyres like hell in his outlap, taking the life out of them. In my mind, the McLaren is the kindest-to-tyres car on the grid and there is no way 'tyre-whisperer' Hamilton could have more than compensated for tyre life superiority of the MCL38 over W15. Unless Lando destroyed his set prematurely; which is what he did, actually.

In my opinion it was not just the outlap which did damage. Lando set 2 fastest laps of the race in a competition with Verstappen who was on a more durable tire. Hamilton never troubled the fastest lap of the race.

I'm sure he was in general pushing a little bit more for that last stint, but of course he had to, he was the one chasing. There was no point going on to softs to not try to catch Hamilton and he had a reasonable margin to close with only limited laps.

It seems without a doubt that the tyres weren't able to give Lando what he needed, but he did absolutely need to push, that is unquestionable. I don't see that he was setting a blazing trail though. Ultimately, If the tyres can't push there was no point in using them, and that is what this comes back to, for me. Softs was the wrong choice and this for me is on the team, and not Lando nor his attempt to close the gap, which was the whole point of the softs, according to the team.

Yes, it's a little bit of a catch 22 isn't it .

Certainly Lando would be closer to the winner and no worse than third if the stop had gone well.

I agree though, it was a catch 22 for Lando as he had no way to get the performance he needed from the tyres.

But that's old news now, on to the next race and we get to have another go

After all the discussion from two pages before, we are again discussing the same topic - 'who made the used S v fresh M call ultimately' ?

I still think it was the outlap and not the tyre decision per-se. Had Lando's outlap been 2 seconds slower, he would have kept the lead from Verstappen, before being in the DRS of Hamilton and passed Hamilton and driven away while the P2 fight was on behind him. The McLaren which has been seeing enhanced tyre life at the end of stints on any tyre, any circuit, any temperature, compared to any other car on the grid, suddenly couldn't become poor on a cold and drying track one fine day.

Stella (being the excellent TP that he is) will never blame the outlap, and will 'take one for the team' by saying it was really the M v S that lost the race for them. Because otherwise, it would mean psychological burial of their dear driver. Which I am happy that he didn't do. I am sure Lando realizes his folly.

[mwillems]

See what Lando does on his outlap with the S he had - he is gunning it like anything, while Lewis on his S and Max on his H were far gentler. Lando's outlap was 3-4s faster than them. This is with the extra 2s he lost not stopping properly in the pitbox. That means Lando was hammering the tyre 6s faster than Lewis and Max in his outlap. That's where he lost his tyres. The decision by pitwall wasn't bad (to go for used S) and it was not a case of "Lewis made the S last more than what it was capable" - none of that. Lando chewed his tyres and paid the price.

You can see in the data you have produced that the track was evolving at a rate of a couple of seconds per lap by that point as it dried up. Lando stopped one lap later and his outlap was 2.549 seconds faster than Hamilton and 3.471 seconds faster than Max, who's hard tyres would be slower to warm up. Both of their outlaps were one lap before.

All well within tolerance of an evolving track and I don't think indicative of anything else, in my opinion.

add +2.xx to those numbers because that was the duration spent extra, vide bad positioning in the pitbox and was compensated by Lando in his outlap. That's why I think he overdrove the tyres like hell in his outlap, taking the life out of them. In my mind, the McLaren is the kindest-to-tyres car on the grid and there is no way 'tyre-whisperer' Hamilton could have more than compensated for tyre life superiority of the MCL38 over W15. Unless Lando destroyed his set prematurely; which is what he did, actually.

In my opinion it was not just the outlap which did damage. Lando set 2 fastest laps of the race in a competition with Verstappen who was on a more durable tire. Hamilton never troubled the fastest lap of the race.

I'm sure he was in general pushing a little bit more for that last stint, but of course he had to, he was the one chasing. There was no point going on to softs to not try to catch Hamilton and he had a reasonable margin to close with only limited laps.

It seems without a doubt that the tyres weren't able to give Lando what he needed, but he did absolutely need to push, that is unquestionable. I don't see that he was setting a blazing trail though. Ultimately, If the tyres can't push there was no point in using them, and that is what this comes back to, for me. Softs was the wrong choice and this for me is on the team, and not Lando nor his attempt to close the gap, which was the whole point of the softs, according to the team.

Yes, it's a little bit of a catch 22 isn't it .

Certainly Lando would be closer to the winner and no worse than third if the stop had gone well.

I agree though, it was a catch 22 for Lando as he had no way to get the performance he needed from the tyres.

But that's old news now, on to the next race and we get to have another go

After all the discussion from two pages before, we are again discussing the same topic - 'who made the used S v fresh M call ultimately' ?

I still think it was the outlap and not the tyre decision per-se. Had Lando's outlap been 2 seconds slower, he would have kept the lead from Verstappen, before being in the DRS of Hamilton and passed Hamilton and driven away while the P2 fight was on behind him. The McLaren which has been seeing enhanced tyre life at the end of stints on any tyre, any circuit, any temperature, compared to any other car on the grid, suddenly couldn't become poor on a cold and drying track one fine day.

Stella (being the excellent TP that he is) will never blame the outlap, and will 'take one for the team' by saying it was really the M v S that lost the race for them. Because otherwise, it would mean psychological burial of their dear driver. Which I am happy that he didn't do. I am sure Lando realizes his folly.

The same point I made stands, he was expected to push and the tyres were expected to last. The fact that they didn't was down to the choice, not the way they were used which was a consequence of the choice. The softs never had a chance of catching Hamilton, not with 2 slow outlaps, or anything. I also still don't think he was overheating the tyres as they were used softs and didn't need the same care as fresh ones.

[Lucky]

All the people blaming Will should go read/listen to Bernice Collins' book, How To Win A Grand Prix, to get an idea of just how complex the decision making process can be.

I do agree that Will could be more decisive at times - but I also think he can still improve. If he doesn't, then the team needs to look at other options, but that can be a discussion for the off-season.

I still think there'd be some benefit to trying to bring in someone from Merc or Red Bull to oversee the race engineers though. Someone like Bono with experience of winning titles.

She is needed

[McLarenMor]

Seems like Will Joseph has some burner accounts or some fans around here.
Go back and do the research, there are many videos with the entire team radio over the weekend, of many of them over the last few years.
He is sub-par at best. The data is the data, and how you present it is VERY important.
I am an engineer myself( Not an F1 team), we can do a lot, but at the end of the line there is one person presenting the information to the driver, in this case, Joseph.
The cover Ham/Ver conversation was the nail in the coffin, amaturish way of presenting information, and I am being generous.
He is not THE probalem, he is an integral part of it.
And again, it's all opinions, we are entitled to have different ones, no reason getting too emotional about it.

I'm neither a fan nor not a fan.

You're the one proposing why he needs to go, put links to the conversations and give us the reasoning for them. Happy to go over it, but not for unsubstantiated heresay.

It's not for you to say what you like and others have to prove you wrong, you have to put something foward to back up what you say.

But without examples or anything to back it up, then it's just a sour opinion with no weight.

I heard the team radio, you're misguided if from that you think Will Joseph was leading the team.

1. Like I said, you're free to go and scroll YouTube, I don't care if you do or don't.
2. If that's what you understand from what I wrote, the he is leading the team, that is beyond me how that is what you conclude.

"The data is the data, and how you present it is VERY important...but at the end of the line there is one person presenting the information to the driver, in this case, Joseph...The cover Ham/Ver conversation was the nail in the coffin, amaturish way of presenting information, and I am being generous.
He is not THE probalem, he is an integral part of it."

[mwillems]

Seems like Will Joseph has some burner accounts or some fans around here.
Go back and do the research, there are many videos with the entire team radio over the weekend, of many of them over the last few years.
He is sub-par at best. The data is the data, and how you present it is VERY important.
I am an engineer myself( Not an F1 team), we can do a lot, but at the end of the line there is one person presenting the information to the driver, in this case, Joseph.
The cover Ham/Ver conversation was the nail in the coffin, amaturish way of presenting information, and I am being generous.
He is not THE probalem, he is an integral part of it.
And again, it's all opinions, we are entitled to have different ones, no reason getting too emotional about it.

I'm neither a fan nor not a fan.

You're the one proposing why he needs to go, put links to the conversations and give us the reasoning for them. Happy to go over it, but not for unsubstantiated heresay.

It's not for you to say what you like and others have to prove you wrong, you have to put something foward to back up what you say.

But without examples or anything to back it up, then it's just a sour opinion with no weight.

I heard the team radio, you're misguided if from that you think Will Joseph was leading the team.

1. Like I said, you're free to go and scroll YouTube, I don't care if you do or don't.
2. If that's what you understand from what I wrote, the he is leading the team, that is beyond me how that is what you conclude.

"The data is the data, and how you present it is VERY important...but at the end of the line there is one person presenting the information to the driver, in this case, Joseph...The cover Ham/Ver conversation was the nail in the coffin, amaturish way of presenting information, and I am being generous.
He is not THE probalem, he is an integral part of it."

I don't need to go to YouTube to see you're leaping headless into conclusions. If you want to have an opinion that has weight, post evidence. But I'm not going to do your work for you.

If Will was told softs to catch Hamilton and mediums for Verstappen, what is he supposed to do? If he shouts it, or sounds angry, what's different Perhaps he should whisper it with a cheeky smile if the team thought it was an even choice between the two then that's what he presents If you think he's the only one out of over 50 people that should have reconsidered, you're being a bit naive.

You're totally making assumptions and putting it on Will. You have no idea if he pushed back on the team and they reassured him. You're making up a narrative.

[McLarenMor]

Your responses are too childish for me, plus your arguments and the conclusions you have from what I write are like you're not even reading what I am writing.
So we will conclude at that and I will wish you a great day

[mwillems]

Your responses are too childish for me, plus your arguments and the conclusions you have from what I write are like you're not even reading what I am writing.
So we will conclude at that and I will wish you a great day

I read it. Perhaps you can explain better as the reply seems suitable.

[Ground Effect]

It's the first time since I've been following F1 that I've heard a race engineer is to blame for the strategy adopted by the team. The engineer of course has an input, but he's fed data, which he passes to the driver. He's monitoring the car performance on every single lap, telling the driver where he's losing time, where he can find time, to cool the car, warning of track limits, telling him what those he's racing against are doing on track and the strategy they're adopting. But we need to fire him because he doesn't shout, scold or threaten the driver? He passes the info that the team decides they will adopt.