This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Yuki is experienced in F1 and taking a step up to a front running team is much better than Liam coming straight in at the deep end and sinking because he can’t stay afloat. Liam could do with the midfield team to get himself established in F1.
Anyone who comes in and sits alongside the greatest driver in the current era, Max, is just opening themselves up for a lot of trouble.
F1 isn’t a finishing school.
It would be vastly better for Liams career in F1 to swap positions, gives him chance to prove his worth against ‘lesser’ machinery.
Although qualifying last in the 3 sessions he’s done in a front running car isn’t acceptable
True. Big step for Yuki aswell. However need a driver who can put the car a space or 2 behind Max and pick up the points, the back of the grid doesn’t get anything.
Let’s face it, you could put 99% of the drivers alongside Max and it would show them up. There aren’t many who could do as good job as he does.
I think very few underestimate how complete a driver Verstappen is. And that is exactly the problem for Red Bull. His preference of an overly pointy car is well known, and ability to mask a car with big inherent rear instability problems. It’s simply too much for others to overcome, especially when Horner and Marko give them only a few races to try it. They clearly thought they had made a car that is easier to drive this year, but it is still only true through Verstappen’s reference points.
Now they will start over again with Yuki who will experience the exact same problem, so who will they put in the car in say, Barcelona? Hadjar? And after him, who? No one left. So why do they bother? They might as well hire a retired driver to act as a test driver during the weekends to serve Max’s title challenge with experimental setups to try to find a heureka breakthrough to make him go quicker. Because they sure as heck won’t see another constructors trophy ever again until they get to grips with how to build a car that can go quick without a generational talent in it.
I can see Lawson coming up against new trouble in the form of Hadjar when Red Bull decides enough is enough and put Yuki in the second RB21. I probably rate Hadjar heigher on pure raw pace than Lawson, so tough challenge there. Little to win, all to lose.
If they can understand the data and set the car up to exploit the potential we saw in the second half of the china race we can fight for more than podiums, given that the tyre degradation was previously the main limitation for the car in the race. Maybe it can be solved on the setup side. Let's see
Yes we are simply too slow at the minute because of a lack of downforce, especially for slow speed corners. But this is improvable in my opinion. They deliberately made a launch car that was as far from peaky as they could go, which implies they weren't searching as hard for performance
Frankly I don't see the second seat situation being resolved soon. Tsunoda won't be a significant improvement on Perez or Albon. As one of his advocates prior to this season, the less said about Lawson the better.
Max lost 18s on the medium to the leader, but finished the race 16s behind Piastri. And they drove the first stint to a really slow delta.. Verstappen was instructed to do this by the team (he did not agree)
Then again, there's a crisis meeting about how to close the gap, so maybe this is all way too positive
If they can understand the data and set the car up to exploit the potential we saw in the second half of the china race we can fight for more than podiums, given that the tyre degradation was previously the main limitation for the car in the race. Maybe it can be solved on the setup side. Let's see
Yes we are simply too slow at the minute because of a lack of downforce, especially for slow speed corners. But this is improvable in my opinion. They deliberately made a launch car that was as far from peaky as they could go, which implies they weren't searching as hard for performance
Frankly I don't see the second seat situation being resolved soon. Tsunoda won't be a significant improvement on Perez or Albon. As one of his advocates prior to this season, the less said about Lawson the better.
Max lost 18s on the medium to the leader, but finished the race 16s behind Piastri. And they drove the first stint to a really slow delta..
Then again, there's a crisis meeting about how to close the gap, so maybe this is all way too positive
Yeah, that first stint may have been too conservative, maybe cost them a shot at Russell.
Idk about a "crisis meeting", Marko just said there was a meeting to discuss how to close the gap. Seems pretty natural after you've been away from the factory for the opening two races. I'd be more interested in knowing what's in the pipeline in terms of upgrades.
Idk about a "crisis meeting", Marko just said there was a meeting to discuss how to close the gap. Seems pretty natural after you've been away from the factory for the opening two races. I'd be more interested in knowing what's in the pipeline in terms of upgrades.
Marko said there are some parts in the pipeline yes - probably the ones he talked about coming between races 3-5. Its a triple header so that's probably why they don't know which race they'll be ready for. He said if they work the team can "be successful again" , but it's about whether or not they all work together well - presumably if he says this the numbers in the WT are good. But he's always positive so idk
I believe this article implies that the upgrades can come for Japan though:
For that, the teams will first travel to Honda's home country. 'Of course we have some in the pipeline,' Marko confirms that Red Bull will then introduce first upgrades, 'but it's also about how the different parts work together and especially whether they work. If those parts work, we can be successful again soon, but that remains to be seen.' So Marko does not want to prejudge the facts yet, but sees a good chance of returning to the top soon.
But Marko himself never explicitly is quoted saying upgrades at Japan
Idk about a "crisis meeting", Marko just said there was a meeting to discuss how to close the gap. Seems pretty natural after you've been away from the factory for the opening two races. I'd be more interested in knowing what's in the pipeline in terms of upgrades.
Marko said there are some parts in the pipeline yes - probably the ones he talked about coming between races 3-5. Its a triple header so that's probably why they don't know which race they'll be ready for. He said if they work the team can "be successful again" , but it's about whether or not they all work together well - presumably if he says this the numbers in the WT are good. But he's always positive so idk
I believe this article implies that the upgrades can come for Japan though:
For that, the teams will first travel to Honda's home country. 'Of course we have some in the pipeline,' Marko confirms that Red Bull will then introduce first upgrades, 'but it's also about how the different parts work together and especially whether they work. If those parts work, we can be successful again soon, but that remains to be seen.' So Marko does not want to prejudge the facts yet, but sees a good chance of returning to the top soon.
But Marko himself never explicitly is quoted saying upgrades at Japan
The sooner the better. Bahrain seems like a more natural place to bring them though. Closer to home and you have lots of data to compare with from the previous spec.
Idk about a "crisis meeting", Marko just said there was a meeting to discuss how to close the gap. Seems pretty natural after you've been away from the factory for the opening two races. I'd be more interested in knowing what's in the pipeline in terms of upgrades.
Marko said there are some parts in the pipeline yes - probably the ones he talked about coming between races 3-5. Its a triple header so that's probably why they don't know which race they'll be ready for. He said if they work the team can "be successful again" , but it's about whether or not they all work together well - presumably if he says this the numbers in the WT are good. But he's always positive so idk
I believe this article implies that the upgrades can come for Japan though:
For that, the teams will first travel to Honda's home country. 'Of course we have some in the pipeline,' Marko confirms that Red Bull will then introduce first upgrades, 'but it's also about how the different parts work together and especially whether they work. If those parts work, we can be successful again soon, but that remains to be seen.' So Marko does not want to prejudge the facts yet, but sees a good chance of returning to the top soon.
But Marko himself never explicitly is quoted saying upgrades at Japan
The sooner the better. Bahrain seems like a more natural place to bring them though. Closer to home and you have lots of data to compare with from the previous spec.
I think the actual quote is more like
"Of course we have something in the pipeline, but it's mainly the combination of these components that determines how they work and more importantly whether they work. So a quick fix, if it worked, would be great, but you can't rely on it."
Found it at a better outlet. I think Japan is possible. They brought an upgrade at round 3 (Japan) in 2024 too remember. And the description of a "quick fix" brought as quickly as possible, at the beginning of a triple header too would make sense
If they can understand the data and set the car up to exploit the potential we saw in the second half of the china race we can fight for more than podiums, given that the tyre degradation was previously the main limitation for the car in the race. Maybe it can be solved on the setup side. Let's see
Could be wrong but what I think happened in the 2nd stint is that an inherent weakness temporarily turned into an advantage. 40 laps on hards .. initially the compound takes heat well. Then starts to lose mass due to wear. Less squizing of the rubber leads to increased difficulty to maintain optimal temperature. Red Bull tends to put a lot of heat into its tyres, as seen in Australia. Probably helped them compared to Ferrari and Mercedes. But not sure if there is any further potential to exploit.
Guys,
I think it's a big mistake to shunt lawson into VCARB, because I think Yuki is in for a rude surprise when he drives the RB21 in race conditions (unlike during a silverstone test) with other cars around, when there is a need to 'get out of dirty air' or 'drive a different line to not suffer momentum loss' and most probably will 'come up short' (probably not the same extent as lawson).
What is the reality ? Redbull cannot win the constructors this season, do they care where they finish in the constructors' ? No. This team cares only for WDC. Constructors' is a bonus. That's their base philosophy. So what's the gain ? P4 in constructors with Yuki instead of P5/P6 with Lawson ?
All Lawson needs is a 'driver-coach' (we all know the cliche statement that F1 is not a finishing school etc etc, but there are many F1 drivers who have become better after undergoing coaching whilst being in F1 itself). Because in Lawson's current situation, simply flooding him with 'data' and asking him to study it, isn't going to help. Studying footage will.
I sincerely don't know what Marko is doing other than making punchline statements to german/austrian/dutch media and serve up ultimatums to his drivers like a prison warden. It's his job to 'coach'. Or Redbull have to hire a specialist driver coach who understands the Redbull car monster (because such a car can't be seen in lower categories or other teams). Guys like Lawson, Hadjar etc are going to immensely benefit if such a coaching setup is present. Enough with the cliches. The philosophy of 'throw them into the pool, they will swim or sink' will work only with genius talent like Max/Lewis/LeClerc , it wont work with all drivers. For example, look at the test miles and hand-holding that Mercedes has provided Antonelli, they are grooming him for a future WDC. Even if not to that extent, atleast have a structural coaching program even for drivers with an F1 seat. Unless they don't do something radical like that, the second Redbull seat is a perennial problem, beccause of the fundamental way in which they design their cars. They have been having this, for what, 6-7 years, now ? The amount of money and resources spent to make the car faster, what fraction of it is spent to make the driver faster ? I am guessing very little.
I called this months ago, this is not a championship winning car. Ferrari are sabotaging themselves (which is a classic) and Norris still makes many mistakes, which is keeping Max in contention at this very early stage (plus his absolute talent of course). But you cannot win a title like this, McLaren is too far away and if Ferrari sort their problem out (which is a big if) we are behind even them.
It's true that this is a marathon not a sprint but at this rate Max will quickly slip back in the standings. Unless a very big update is coming and proves to be a real game changer like McLaren's Miami one, which I have zero faith for. What buffles me the most is that they called an "emergency meeting" this week to solve the situation, I thought that meetings like this should have taken place EVERY WEEK since Monza last year, not like they are discovering the problems just now....I mean open your fuc*ing eyes.
They aren't discovering the problems now. Last year they did well to salvage the season. They produced upgrades that allowed Verstappen to win at Qatar on pure pace and drive to victory in Brazil. They have since solved the rb20's main issues and after 2 rounds are only 8 points off the lead. They built a conservative base car, yes - they've been talking about doing this for 12 months. 9 months ago last year Horner was talking about how perhaps they made their car too complicated. They've made it simpler and now it behaves as expected. Now it's a matter of adding performance back sustainably without ruining the balance
Last edited by organic on 23 Mar 2025, 21:50, edited 2 times in total.
Its ok we cant win them all. Lets see, dont know why but after that last stint by Max today I got a good feeling about the next race. Its better to have a car slower in qualy, with more race pace. Lets go, season starts again in Suzuka.
