Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Jolle]

I wanted to know if the MGU-K can be used as McLaren's old extra brake pedal out of corners? It would help with traction and return a minuscule amount of energy too. I guess it is only possible if that braking can be controlled from left to right...? Oh yes, would it be legal too?

https://youtu.be/zHWqGVxm4HU

Yes I watched that video and understand how it works. My question is using the stored energy as a form of traction control out of corners. Using the energy to slightly brake the inside rear wheel out of corners.

Well, by my knowledge you can't use it on one wheel, like the McLaren third paddle but you can harvest energy when you're not on 100% throttle.

Let's say you only ask for 50% power. The ICE will give 60% and the K unit will give -10% (it harvest). In fact, any time the driver releases the throttle paddle, in max harvest mode, the ICE can just match the max K harvest and fill the ES within a few corners.

[taperoo2k]

I wanted to know if the MGU-K can be used as McLaren's old extra brake pedal out of corners? It would help with traction and return a minuscule amount of energy too. I guess it is only possible if that braking can be controlled from left to right...? Oh yes, would it be legal too?

https://youtu.be/zHWqGVxm4HU

Yes I watched that video and understand how it works. My question is using the stored energy as a form of traction control out of corners. Using the energy to slightly brake the inside rear wheel out of corners.

Depends if that's technically possible, worth the effort aka delivers laptime and if the FIA haven't already decided it's traction control and thus banned. You also have to remember that other teams will protest that kind of thing if they get wind of it to either get the basic technical knowledge of how it works to design their own version or to get it banned if it costs a lot and only delivers a minimal increase in laptime, when they could spend the money in other areas and gain a lot more.

[godlameroso]

I wanted to know if the MGU-K can be used as McLaren's old extra brake pedal out of corners? It would help with traction and return a minuscule amount of energy too. I guess it is only possible if that braking can be controlled from left to right...? Oh yes, would it be legal too?

https://youtu.be/zHWqGVxm4HU

Yes I watched that video and understand how it works. My question is using the stored energy as a form of traction control out of corners. Using the energy to slightly brake the inside rear wheel out of corners.

It can be a form of torque vectoring. In the simplest sense the MGU-K can deploy +/- 120kw, so with the aid of the electronic differential with proper electronic control you could brake one of the wheels more than another during cornering. Or harvest excess torque produced by the crankshaft to make smooth and predictable power delivery. Call it soft TC, but in practice it's just about making a more consistent torque demand. Or adjusting under or over steer into corners.

[Tommy Cookers]

but the rules only allow a diff that can't torque vector (it's only 'electronicness' is remote on-the-fly adjustability by driver selection)
typically open diff on corner entry then large slip limiting on exit

and its action is the same regardless of which source(s) of torque are driving the CWP
ok K torque acts as a significant matcher of overall output to loss of adhesion situations eg motor racing (helping traction and braking)
potentially this matching relieves the diff of some of its work and eg reduces the amount of slip limiting (energy loss) that the diff needs to develop

synergy but not torque vectoring - because the only permitted diff action is torque balance at all times, open or slip limiting

[godlameroso]

but the rules only allow a diff that can't torque vector (it's only 'electronicness' is remote on-the-fly adjustability by driver selection)
typically open diff on corner entry then large slip limiting on exit

and its action is the same regardless of which source(s) of torque are driving the CWP
ok K torque acts as a significant matcher of overall output to loss of adhesion situations eg motor racing (helping traction and braking)
potentially this matching relieves the diff of some of its work and eg reduces the amount of slip limiting (energy loss) that the diff needs to develop

synergy but not torque vectoring - because the only permitted diff action is torque balance at all times, open or slip limiting

I'm assuming you've seen the onboards, if you watched Bottas onboard lap around Bahrain you can clearly see him selecting different entry maps. Although you are correct, it's probably not torque vectoring in the traditional sense, the cars can be set up for entry into different corners, especially considering the brake by wire aspect.

[Del Boy]

After Honda finaly dumped Gilles Simon it could be Mario Illen or the Mercedes advisor team?

The Mercedes advisor team? Where the hell did you imagine-up this from rubbish?

Rumors invented by some journalists.. To Discredit the work of Honda.
I love reading the technical talk, but these rumors are ridiculous

Sorry I can't tell you the source of this but...McLaren road car engines are made by a company called Ricardo based in Shoreham, 3 of their engineers travelled to Bahrain last Monday and returned on Friday.

[Writinglife]

The Mercedes advisor team? Where the hell did you imagine-up this from rubbish?

Rumors invented by some journalists.. To Discredit the work of Honda.
I love reading the technical talk, but these rumors are ridiculous

Sorry I can't tell you the source of this but...McLaren road car engines are made by a company called Ricardo based in Shoreham, 3 of their engineers travelled to Bahrain last Monday and returned on Friday.

http://www.ricardo.com/en-GB/News--Medi ... agreement/ Not exactly top secret hush-hush

It would make perfect sense for a supplier of McLaren Automotive to be invited to a GP. It doesn't necessarily mean anything beyond the standard supplier hospitality arrangements.

[J.A.W.]

.........its flat track equivalent in terms of decades-long success was indeed a highly developed 45` H-D XR-750, & yes, all still with a 'knife & fork' conrod/single crankpin..
( so, yes, a type of 'natural' - 'big-bang', of sorts..)

well, no ......
afaik the XR-750 of course has as standard firing intervals of 315 deg then 405 deg etc - so it is a natural (nearly) even-firing engine
to fit BB theory people would modify cams etc to get firing intervals of 45 deg then 675 deg etc ie more BB than the BB Honda
who does or has done this ?

similarly as has been said the F1 Honda could have a 0 deg 3 throw crank .......
and fire 3 cyls at the 270 deg interval then 3 at 450 deg later etc or fire 3 at the 90 deg then 3 at 630 deg later for real BB appeal
balance would be tolerably good, basically the same as a NA F1 style V8 and some expensive road cars

as has been said, when cylinder cutting the expected F1 engine firing intervals will be less even than when not cylinder cutting

No T-C, the traditional British-style vertical twin with 360`firing order is even..
..the uneven 'potato-potato' H-D firing is nowadays so fashionable that many vertical twins
seek to emulate its distinctive off-beat cadence by running calculatedly staggered crankpins..

If Honda F1 is running an odd crank configuration, it will be for a perceived performance advantage,
rather than as a 'fashion' item though, I expect..

Laverda did run a 180`crank on its early 3cyl bikes, but this was due to manufacturing limitations,
rather than any positive purpose ( & they sound like a 180`inline 4 - with one dud cylinder, just awful),
& replaced them with a 'proper' 120` triple set-up - as soon as they were able to do so..

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=J.A.W.]
No T-C, the traditional British-style vertical twin with 360`firing order is even..
..the uneven 'potato-potato' H-D firing is nowadays so fashionable that many vertical twins
seek to emulate its distinctive off-beat cadence by running calculatedly staggered crankpins..[/quote]

on planet Earth the traditional V twin is as near to even firing as allowed by the amount of the V angle
ie a H-D might sound to some as uneven but it is quite near to even - this is the retro/traditional American sound
nearer to even than eg a 90 deg V twin like the Moto Guzzi

the parallel twin with 90 deg crank (270 deg is another name for this) has been around for c.30 years, Yamaha started it
it needs less counterbalance shaft (bulk/friction) than the 0 deg (360 deg is another name) crank parallel twin would and has no secondary vibration
its firing intervals are 270 deg, then 450 deg etc

a parallel twin with a 0 deg crank needs bigger counterbalance shafting and has vibration at twice engine rpm
but has even firing intervals ie 360 deg the 360 deg etc so has the retro/traditional British sound
the even firing means that it can run slower without transmission surging
yes Triumph makes both arrangements available in otherwise essentially the same machine

bulkier counterbalance shafting means further from ideal placing and ideal counterbalancing effect

the 90 deg (similar c 76 deg really) was suggested by Phil Irving in WW2 Britain (pre counterbalance shaft era of course)
hundreds of old British machines have been converted to this (using the Norton Commando crank which is easy to modify thus)
the camchafts and ignition must be modified


J.A.W. - please feel free to start a thread for this topic

[nevill3]

http://www.ricardo.com/en-GB/News--Medi ... agreement/ Not exactly top secret hush-hush

It would make perfect sense for a supplier of McLaren Automotive to be invited to a GP. It doesn't necessarily mean anything beyond the standard supplier hospitality arrangements.

But the comment said they were not at the GP but at the testing, and after reading just what they do I am pleased to hear they were there. The company have expertise in combustion chamber design and modification and advanced combustion analysis to name but two of their specialist fields.

[Richard C]

The Mercedes advisor team? Where the hell did you imagine-up this from rubbish?

Rumors invented by some journalists.. To Discredit the work of Honda.
I love reading the technical talk, but these rumors are ridiculous

Sorry I can't tell you the source of this but...McLaren road car engines are made by a company called Ricardo based in Shoreham, 3 of their engineers travelled to Bahrain last Monday and returned on Friday.

Maybe not there to assist Honda, but rather McLaren. I am not trying to drive a wedge between McLaren and Honda, but generally speaking all information on progress will come from Honda. If McLaren wanted a quick set of trusted eyes on what was going on, then bring in an existing partner such as design engineers from Ricardo. They already know each other and have an established working relationship. They could comment on and review what Honda presents and maybe ask questions that McLaren might not know to ask.

Regarding helping Honda, Ricardo may be very capable, and clearly design/build the nice GT road engines for McLaren, but do they have any experience with this level of race engines? Not taking away from the Ricardo talent, I would think that while Honda may be having issues, they are likely a step beyond what Ricardo does on a regular basis?

Richard

[63l8qrrfy6]

Rumors invented by some journalists.. To Discredit the work of Honda.
I love reading the technical talk, but these rumors are ridiculous

Sorry I can't tell you the source of this but...McLaren road car engines are made by a company called Ricardo based in Shoreham, 3 of their engineers travelled to Bahrain last Monday and returned on Friday.

Maybe not there to assist Honda, but rather McLaren. I am not trying to drive a wedge between McLaren and Honda, but generally speaking all information on progress will come from Honda. If McLaren wanted a quick set of trusted eyes on what was going on, then bring in an existing partner such as design engineers from Ricardo. They already know each other and have an established working relationship. They could comment on and review what Honda presents and maybe ask questions that McLaren might not know to ask.

Regarding helping Honda, Ricardo may be very capable, and clearly design/build the nice GT road engines for McLaren, but do they have any experience with this level of race engines? Not taking away from the Ricardo talent, I would think that while Honda may be having issues, they are likely a step beyond what Ricardo does on a regular basis?

Richard

I agree, if anything Honda have more know how about race engine design than Ricardo.

On the other hand Ricardo have a few good transmission, control and calibration engineers. I find it hard to speculate (which is unusual) what sort of support they might be offering.

By the way - were Ricardo not involved with defining the engine architecture for 2014 as some sort of FIA consultant? Would it not be a conflict of interest if they were to help other teams?

[McHonda]

Sorry I can't tell you the source of this but...McLaren road car engines are made by a company called Ricardo based in Shoreham, 3 of their engineers travelled to Bahrain last Monday and returned on Friday.

Maybe not there to assist Honda, but rather McLaren. I am not trying to drive a wedge between McLaren and Honda, but generally speaking all information on progress will come from Honda. If McLaren wanted a quick set of trusted eyes on what was going on, then bring in an existing partner such as design engineers from Ricardo. They already know each other and have an established working relationship. They could comment on and review what Honda presents and maybe ask questions that McLaren might not know to ask.

Regarding helping Honda, Ricardo may be very capable, and clearly design/build the nice GT road engines for McLaren, but do they have any experience with this level of race engines? Not taking away from the Ricardo talent, I would think that while Honda may be having issues, they are likely a step beyond what Ricardo does on a regular basis?

Richard

I agree, if anything Honda have more know how about race engine design than Ricardo.

On the other hand Ricardo have a few good transmission, control and calibration engineers. I find it hard to speculate (which is unusual) what sort of support they might be offering.

By the way - were Ricardo not involved with defining the engine architecture for 2014 as some sort of FIA consultant? Would it not be a conflict of interest if they were to help other teams?

Didn't Simon consult on forming the regulations too?. I thought he and Thiessen were involved in some capacity but to be honest I've read so many people were now that I've lost track. The teams themselves were involved anyway so I don't see any problem with conflict of interest with Ricardo if they were involved too.

Any and all help should be welcomed, only Mercedes did everything themselves during these regulations but before 2014 they worked with Zytek on the hybrid research.

If Ricardo are working with Honda on some parts of the PU then that's great. The more the merrier.

[mclaren111]

Maybe Ricardo might have different dyno's that can assist Honda in the short to medium term and speed up their recovery ??

[McHonda]

Maybe Ricardo might have different dyno's that can assist Honda in the short to medium term and speed up their recovery ??

Could also just be looking after small niggling issues within the PU which allows Honda to focus fully on larger or more problematic areas.

Lots of upsides and possibilities to working with partners.