Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[frosty125]

Not sure what to make of the Omnicourse article they are a bit hit and miss for example they were one of those who suggested that the 'spine' radiator was for intercooler cooling (as did I) which turned out to be not true at all.

Maybe the compressor isn't really too small if they could operate all the systems at 100% as designed which they can't due to heat and reliability issues. It was reported that the Ferrari compressor was too small but I'm not sure this is the case, the problem they actually had relates to the MGU-H which they could not use fully last year.

[dren]

The pictures are pretty inconclusive as to how low the turbine is placed. The exhaust is rising up a little, but from the three pictures we have, the turbine can easily be placed high enough to have the MGUH and compressor in the V and still not be visible.

I'm interested in your theory...

[FW17]

The compressor would just be very tiny if it were between cylinders 1&4 (Cast into the engine perhaps?) but that is a very risky thing to do.

Is it possible to measure the space between the Cylinder banks from these images (both are of 90 degree V8's)

The bore was 97mm in the Honda image (Hopefully Cut at the Cylinder Center Line)


http://www.k20a.org/uploadnew/formulaon ... ci_neu.jpg

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp-c ... uphv8a.jpg

You must get one with trubo and then you could do "proportional" guess. That it could work. Anyway in block cast solution would it mke a bit more tigty yes, but will it blend?

Bv. nice idea...

350 mm is the space between the Cylinders banks (quiet a large Compressor)

[hairy_scotsman]

Csaba Varga @atticvs2
@ScarbsF1 So it's indeed a split turbo after all? It's (axial) compressor-MGU-H-turbine in that order (w/ the former 2 in the V of the ICE)?

Craig Scarborough
@ScarbsF1
@atticvs2 Yes exactly that

[Sasha]

Everybody writes off a single-stage axial compressor because it can't compress high enough.

But I think people forget there are ways of getting multi stages within FIA rules.

Multi-spool and contra-rotation (pretty much what the next generation of turbofans are going)

IHI is a partner in all the next gen jet engines(GE,Rolls and PW)

[rccrdc]

Two days ago Omnicorse said the compressor was axial and now the say it's centrifugal... Trust them!

[ferkan]

I thought Omnicorse were alone in saying compressor is mounted in V of an engine more then a month ago. They can be hit and miss, but Scarbs was the one who said compressor is in front of the engine just days ago so we will have to wait and see.

[dren]

Everybody writes off a single-stage axial compressor because it can't compress high enough.

But I think people forget there are ways of getting multi stages within FIA rules.

Multi-spool and contra-rotation (pretty much what the next generation of turbofans are going)

IHI is a partner in all the next gen jet engines(GE,Rolls and PW)

Anything multi-stage is out because it specifically states single stage. Also, contra-rotation is out because everything has to rotate with the same angular velocity. The vector component rules that illegal. I'd like to think Honda has some new tech with their single stage compressor, though.

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

[maccafan]

I wonder during these first races how did they setup the engine. Did they lower the ers output or turbo/compressor output? If they are using this new techology in f1 what if they did use 100% ers but turbo was used by 50 ish procent? Any thoughts?

[nevill3]

I am loving this thread, I have been trawling the internet looking for clues and came across a "Tesla Turbine" article
http://www.howstuffworks.com/tesla-turbine.htm

Could Honda be using this technology to power their compressor?

[frosty125]

I wonder during these first races how did they setup the engine. Did they lower the ers output or turbo/compressor output? If they are using this new techology in f1 what if they did use 100% ers but turbo was used by 50 ish procent? Any thoughts?

At Oz the ICE was not at 100% due to in part air intake temperatures. There have been more recent reports that ICE is now at a 100% but this might not be quite true as it might be restricted by MGU-H not fully functional. Most reports have been the that the bottleneck is with ERS.

[Sasha]

Everybody writes off a single-stage axial compressor because it can't compress high enough.

But I think people forget there are ways of getting multi stages within FIA rules.

Multi-spool and contra-rotation (pretty much what the next generation of turbofans are going)

IHI is a partner in all the next gen jet engines(GE,Rolls and PW)

Anything multi-stage is out because it specifically states single stage. Also, contra-rotation is out because everything has to rotate with the same angular velocity. The vector component rules that illegal. I'd like to think Honda has some new tech with their single stage compressor, though.

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

I didn't say multi-stage....I said MULTI-SPOOL
look up two or three spool turbine designs

[langwadt]

Everybody writes off a single-stage axial compressor because it can't compress high enough.

But I think people forget there are ways of getting multi stages within FIA rules.

Multi-spool and contra-rotation (pretty much what the next generation of turbofans are going)

IHI is a partner in all the next gen jet engines(GE,Rolls and PW)

Anything multi-stage is out because it specifically states single stage. Also, contra-rotation is out because everything has to rotate with the same angular velocity. The vector component rules that illegal. I'd like to think Honda has some new tech with their single stage compressor, though.

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

I didn't say multi-stage....I said MULTI-SPOOL
look up two or three spool turbine designs

but doesn't multi spool imply both multiple stages and running at different speeds?

[hurril]

but doesn't multi spool imply both multiple stages and running at different speeds?

Yes...

[hairy_scotsman]

^^^This is kinda what I've been wondering about. Maybe a supplier or Honda themselves have found a way to get the boost they want with just one axial stage...so as to stay legal & all. Feasible?