Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[drunkf1fan]

What Omnicourse is suggesting is bassicaly a fundamental mistake whit design,and yet Arai said after all the problems they had,the MP4-30 will be a winner by the end of year.
I chose to belive Japanese over Italians every day!

When Arai said that he may have believed it but doesn't necessarily make it true. IE lets say in March, or at some stage, you believe some issue can be overcome somehow but after several weeks you realise something needs completely changing. Moving from a minor fix you believe can be done in season to a major change that will take longer.

I mean, ask Renault about reliability 6 weeks ago before they found the piston problem and when maybe only one or two cars were on the second engine compared to today when they know about the piston problem and each car has killed at least 2 engines, at least one having killed three engines.

What was true or believed even just before China might not be true today.

A lot of what Arai was working off was how the engine performed on the dyno and without much running at all prior to say the end of China. They think fixing cooling will open up all this performance, a couple races later having turned up the engine and improved cooling the performance isn't where they predicted it will be.

Don't forget that before and during Australia Arai and Ron were talking about running conservatively due to the engine limit, by the end of the weekend both had entirely thrown that concept out of the window. Just because at one stage Arai believed they'd be competing by the end of the season doesn't mean he still believes that or that it is possible. Even when that kind of thing was being said during Australia/Malaysia I took it more as hope than a strong statement of intent.

[Sasha]

off the same shaft or geared and if you only use one stator then it is only one stage

[diffuser]

but doesn't multi spool imply both multiple stages and running at different speeds?

Yes...

I think multi spool is multi fan.
In axial flow compressor a stage is defined by 1 moving fan and 1 stationary fan.

Now is 5 fans all moving at the same speed 5 stages or 1 stage? I have no idea.

[gruntguru]

I didn't say multi-stage....I said MULTI-SPOOL
look up two or three spool turbine designs

I have yet to see a two spool turbine that doesn't have two stators - how about you look it up and post a picture when you find it?

[wuzak]

but doesn't multi spool imply both multiple stages and running at different speeds?

Yes...

I think multi spool is multi fan.
In axial flow compressor a stage is defined by 1 moving fan and 1 stationary fan.

Now is 5 fans all moving at the same speed 5 stages or 1 stage? I have no idea.

An axial flow stage is defined by a compressor wheel (rotor). Stators are used when each successive stage rotates in the same direction, but can be omitted when the stages have counter rotation. This is complicated, but has been done in the past. AA Griffiths built a counter rotating multi-stage axial compressor for testing during the 1930s (I think before he started work with Metropolitan Vickers), and there was at least one similar compressor built in Germany during WW2.

Not sure if any others have implemented this system, as though it offers better efficiency it is also complicated and probably more expensive.

In multi stage axial compressors there will be several compressor stages on each spool, each turning in the same direction and the same rotational speed.

[godlameroso]

A potential way to get around the regulations would be to use multi-element vanes on a single stage. So technically it's a single vane single stage, with non variable vanes. Instead, it's just a very axially long radial compressor. The rules don't really say anything about having stators in the compressor. If this is the case you'd have the disadvantage that the center of mass is located further away from the bearing, this would cause more lateral load on the bearings, possibly distorting seals.

[wuzak]

If you put a stator in the compressor then you have more than one stage, even if the compressor wheel is one unit.

You could have an axially long centrifugal compressor, but I'm not sure that gives you any advantage.

[Sasha]

That is why I would put my money on a Mixed-Flow compressor

[salva021291]

Is it possible to do this: a tip turbine engine includes an axial compressor having a plurality of airfoils compressing core airflow. The airfoils include bleed air openings on their suction side surfaces. The bleed air openings prevent separation of the compressed airflow, which permits each airfoil stage to perform increased compression without separation of the airflow. As a result, the number of stages can be reduced, thereby shortening the overall length of the turbine engine.

Read more: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/2009001 ... z3Y4MtHnn7

it is technologically possible but not applicable to me to F1 ..... should be against the rules.

[drunkf1fan]

Actually two days ago, at the same day when the supposed meeting in Sakura should taken place, Alonso said that he expecting huge boost in Barcelona. Yesterday Boullier downplayed this saying that the development will be steady, but no one of them has dropped the earlier statements that they will be competitive (wining) by the end of the season. I doubt that in Sakura have realized for one night that their concept is wrong, and that was not told to McLaren.

Alonso is getting a HUGE amount of heat about his decision so at this point I would fully expect him to just repeat the "We'll be better than Ferrari.... eventually" line. If they said "oh, we hoped to be competitive this year, maybe it will be next year now" will in the current media be spun simply as "Alonso/Mclaren have lost all hope in the Honda engine, expect nothing this year..." etc. Media is terrible now, take any line and twist the living hell out of it for dramatic effect.

You've got to think about who the people are and what and why they are saying what they are. Ron/Alonso have effectively their reputations riding on their decisions to move to a Honda engine and move to Mclaren/Honda respectively, they are getting loads of press about if it was a bad decision so won't talk about delays and problems publicly. Boullier/Arai are effectively the opposite, their reputations are based on not under performing compared to the public perception. IE if people talk up the car/engine and it does badly those two get blamed. If the car/engine aren't perceived as strong those two doing better would seem like a decent job. It's how you can get two people with two different agendas, one downplaying performance in Barcelona, one talking it up.

A big boost in Barcelona is still possible while being ERS limited. They were 120 seconds behind Hamilton in Bahrain, they could close to 60 seconds behind and still be no where near competitive at the front which is their target. If there is a limit on ERS power in the design as it is, that doesn't mean they are at that limit yet. So they may be able to close to finishing 40 seconds behind Hamilton but no further.

For quite a while I felt they effectively made the same mistakes Ferrari made and are suffering the consequences. I don't think we'll have many answers to if the car works or not anytime soon. If that car suddenly becomes competitive with say Ferrari at the end of the season(with no big changes to the engine) then it is a good design. We might see at some stage tokens used to move the compressor.. though it may not be possible within the current chassis design. If picks of next years engine show up with a compressor on the front or on the back... then we could probably safely assume compressor in the V just isn't practical. Really very interested to see where the Mclaren/Honda car ends up design wise. I do suspect they will turn up next year with a compressor outside the V, increased reliability and significantly increased performance. If they can engineer the compressor inside the V and get it reliable, it would be a fantastic piece of engineering.

Maybe we'll see them competing for wins end of season and the engine doesn't change. I don't know, at all. I hope even if they are ERS limited by the design choices they can still improve a lot on where they are now.

[redoctober89]

My interpretation of the regs is that no multi stage compressor / turbines are permitted

5.1.6
Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line.

However I cant see anything that could rule out single stage Axial / Mixed Flow

With regards to the axial however, I think you would find it very difficult to achieve the required Pressure Ratio / expansion ratios whilst maintaining good efficiency.

I think a Mixed Flow compressor / turbine could achieve required PR/ER but im not sure what it gives you from a packaging perspective.

[drunkf1fan]

But huge boost and the engine having a lower maximum than they imagined aren't mutually exclusive. Lets say they hoped they could get 95% out of the theoretical maximum the ERS could produce on the dyno by the end of the season. If they are only at 40% now and will turn that up to 60% for Barcelona, that is a huge boost... however at the same time they could lower the maximum they expect for the season from 95% down to 80%, or 70%, or even 60%.

In terms of what Ron says... well, Ron speak is famous and I wouldn't take any of it for granted as being true. AS for doing something different, I wouldn't take that as fact but again even if it was different, trying something different doesn't necessarily mean you stick with it. Again Ferrari would be the example, last year they tried the compressor in the V, they couldn't make it work effectively so changed it. That doesn't mean Mclaren can't get on top of their problems, but it's certainly possible that they can't engineer their way around the problems. AS with all things, the best balance of everything usually works best. They may be able to (as may Ferrari) engineer a perfectly reliable compressor for inside the V, but it might mean they can't cool the air coming out of the compressor as well, or the temps around the ICE are too high. It may be a less good compressor outside the V allows for a better overall PU. It may be that compressor inside the V loses them what they deem to be more than moving it outside the V does, gain 5% on the PU but lose 1% on the aero and they decide that gives them the best car.

The only car that didn't compromise engine did best last year, the only car to reverse the engine compromise improved more than anyone else. RBR still won't compromise and they got even worse, Mclaren are where they are. There seems to be a fairly clear trend there.

I'd be very happy if Mclaren make a truly competitive car out of the current package, but I suspect from the evidence of all the other cars on the grid, that making more sensible balanced decisions are producing significantly better cars at the moment.

[dren]

I didn't say multi-stage....I said MULTI-SPOOL
look up two or three spool turbine designs

I know what you said, but you also said:

But I think people forget there are ways of getting multi stages within FIA rules.

So I said you cannot have anything with multi-stages because it is prohibited.

I thought multi-spool was self explanatory as for why it was not allowed. I guess you could have two or more spools, but only one of the spools with one set of blades on it. That would be multi-spool and fit within the regulations, but it'd be pointless.

As you eluded to in another post, mixed flow sounds a likely candidate. I agree.

[PlatinumZealot]

That is why I would put my money on a Mixed-Flow compressor

Still at least two stages.

For anybody that is curious it is a mix of axial and radial. normally used in helicopter engines and such.. pretty obvious it is two or more stages of compression. And would not in any way change the exducer diameter of the radial part. So I rule this one out.

[PlatinumZealot]

Poeople just chatting all kinds of crap in here without doing any reasonable reading older posts in the thread. lol..

It is fun to read the different creative Ideas, but it is not so fun when the tenth guy comes in and shouts "Axial compressor, for sure!" without even adding anything different from the nine other guys.