Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[FoxHound]

...simply disgusting.

And yet you don't flinch to "ditch Toro Rosso".

Yea .. good moral standpoint yourself. What a joke.

Ditch = sale. Not Termination. What will an investor do with a GP team? Make biscuits? The joke is in your interpretation, but I'll paint the picture more vividly next time to ensure there's no mistake.

[bhall II]

And about Cosworth; i suspect these V6T are a little more complex than the old V8s used to be. I think Honda could sing a song about it...

Cosworth has already developed a V6T power unit...

Cosworth has revealed its 2014 Formula 1 power unit although it will not be used this season.

The English company started work on a 2014 engine as long ago as 2010, when the regulations stipulated an I4 layout at the behest of Volkswagen. But when the German company decided against a Formula 1 entry in June 2011 the rules were switched to a V6 layout. Cosworth decided around this time that without a backer for the V6 that it could not offer it as a customer engine.

According to sources in Cosworth speaking with Racecar Engineering founder Ian Bamsey, now editor of Race Engine Technology magazine, development on both the I4 and V6 has continued as the former is being worked on for an undisclosed high performance road car project and the latter so that when it gains the required support it is ready to re-enter Formula 1. Honda, Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault are building 2014 engines, whilst the PURE project faltered early on.

Along with racing it in F1, the power unit could potentially be used in Red Bull's oft-mooted road car project.

In other words, the idea isn't as far-fetched as it may seem.

[FoxHound]

I find the fairytale that Redbull could (should) just start building engines highly amusing. They have ZERO expertise in that field. No know-how, no engineers, no facilities... Zip. Zielch. Nada

In the fairytale world you find highly amusing, Mercedes built engines for 16 years. What expertise did Mercedes suddenly garner to field a racing team in just under 3 months?
Ohhhh, They went and bought a GP team. Well it's turning into some fairytale right now for sure.

Talking numbers, Mercedes had to invest 100 million upfront to run the team, then invested a further 200 million in upgrades to the factory, windtunnel, CFD and simulation models.
On top of this there were rising costs of team participation which Daimler footed bills in the region of 60 to 70 million a year just in operational costs and recruitment drives. By the time the W04 arrived, and after 3 years of chasing shadows, 500 million was spent on JUST the GP team.

MB HPP are a seperate entity for fiscal purposes.

Now the shoe is most definitely on the other foot. And Red Bull could buy an operation and do it themselves. There is no question about expertise! This is stupendously ridiculous drivel that basically denies the reality and truth that expertise can be bought.
How else did an energy drinks company win 4 world titles in a row? By naturally being wonderful at manipulating air?

If I were a Red Bull fan, I'd say this "fantasy" is by far more workable than the current nightmare Red Bull have put themselves into. And by pretending it isn't is the actual fantasy here.

And people seriously think RedBull can just come out with pocket change and do one better in a few months?

And about Cosworth; i suspect these V6T are a little more complex than the old V8s used to be. I think Honda could sing a song about it...

Who said anything about months?
Red Bull had ample warning last year, and this. Any project taken on now will have at least a year and a half lead time.
And it will cost money, as anything else.
Until such time, Red Bull will just have to accept what they are given.

[bill shoe]

This RB situation will be the significant storyline of 2015. RB/Dieter thought that swinging two teams worth of money around the paddock and dominating 3 or 4 world championships would give him the most power, or at least make him tied with a couple other heavy-hitters. It now turns out that if you are a high-dollar sponsor (such as an owner of a branded team) with no significant technological infrastructure beyond the F1 team you own, then you don't have power in the paddock. The current powertrain formula has turned out to be a perfect recipe for putting power in the hands of stable long-term corporations with high-end R&D facilities. And no, I didn't understand this 2 years ago so I'm not a genius.

So yes I think Dieter is genuinely disillusioned with F1 in the sense that he is not the biggest power in town. I don't see any logic to Bernie or anyone else helping RB out of their mess. F1 is already too crowded at the top. If RB doesn't take their ball and go home then it will simply be someone else that has to take their ball and go home...

I define "too crowded at the top" as: The number of companies in F1 with budget/prestige/power that can't be reconciled with failure, is larger than the number of companies that can be successful in F1 over a period of 2 or 3 years (the typical timeline/patience of a large company). Therefore some of the current players will have to quit in failure. Sorry for wordy definition.

[Cold Fussion]

If Red Bull wants a manufacture independent engine (which I doubt they want) then the only realistic option is to buy someone like Cosworth or AER. Doing it themselves is a non-start IMO, it will take too long to assemble all the right people and design a competitive enough unit to be relevant.

[FW17]

They also have Ilmor and AVL to work with.

Also Joint projects with TMG Ford etc are possible

but issue is they need an engine for next year

I wonder why Petronas, Megatron, Playlife engines are not possible in this era.

[FW17]

Or RedBull could end up as Benetton

[superdowg316]

I wonder why Petronas, Megatron, Playlife engines are not possible in this era.

That's actually a good question. Mecachrome still assemble Renault's F1 engines so it would make sense that if Renault and Red Bull still had an engine deal for next year (unlikely since Red Bull keep talking about their Ferrari engines for next year) or even if to at least honour the agreement for 2016 why not run it as Red Bull-Mecachrome? That way they still have engines and not, at brand level at least, associated with Renault.

This whole drama with PU parity wouldn't of happened if Manor didn't have to run 2014 Ferrari engines at the start of the season through special dispensation. As much as we need teams like Manor, it's opened a huge loophole in the regs and now because of trying to save one minor (until they become the Mercedes B-Team at least) team we may instead lose two competitive/midfield teams.

[ME4ME]

...simply disgusting.

And yet you don't flinch to "ditch Toro Rosso".

Yea .. good moral standpoint yourself. What a joke.

Ditch = sale. Not Termination. What will an investor do with a GP team? Make biscuits? The joke is in your interpretation, but I'll paint the picture more vividly next time to ensure there's no mistake.

You think that's realistic? Red Bull have been open to the idea to sell Toro Rosso all year, letting Renault check out their facilities etc, yet nothing came out of that. With the current state of F1, being under EU investigation and TV-views declining, nobody is going to be interested. Add to that the team is without engine contract, are behind in 2016 development and will be crippled by the time a deal would be done.

[turbof1]

Look, to end this discussion about Red Bull building their own engine: it's not going to happen. It's rather pointless to discuss whether or not they can and point to cosworth, while this is not on the table at all. Ain't gonna happen. C'est pas une possibilité.

So let's stop going in circles. There are only 2 options: Red Bull stays in the sport as a customer, or leaves the sport. About the former part we can discuss what kind of hardware they are going to get, and about the latter we can talk about the repercussions to the sport.

[SiLo]

Why can't they buy Cosworth, but maybe run customer engines for a year or two? Essentially what McLaren did with Honda, but with a bit more patience.

Yes, I used the word patience when talking about Red Bull. Shoot me now!

[FoxHound]

You think that's realistic? Red Bull have been open to the idea to sell Toro Rosso all year, letting Renault check out their facilities etc, yet nothing came out of that. With the current state of F1, being under EU investigation and TV-views declining, nobody is going to be interested. Add to that the team is without engine contract, are behind in 2016 development and will be crippled by the time a deal would be done.

Why would Renault want Torro Rosso when they could have Lotus, which was in fact the former Renault team proper?
Haas is entering, and their are other teams who would jump at the chance to participate.
Also, the team not having a contract for an engine is moot. Both Ferrari and Mercedes would supply if it meant an independent Torro Rosso survives.
The EU investigation is actually to the benefit of Torro Rosso, should Sauber and Force India win the case, it means they get extra income and the top teams less. Bernie is not flustered here in the slightest.

As for dwindling viewing figures, the decline has been for over 5 years. And the switch to subscription services means this has had a greater impact over the last 2 years than anything else. Bernie want's paid subscribers over free to air.
The only way to overcome that is not be a paid subscriber, which many have done.

And the late development is as a direct result of Red Bull's severing of ties with Renault without so much as a back up plan. They have no engines for 2016, and that was their own choice which now directly affects Torro Rosso.

[Thunder]

Yes, I used the word patience when talking about Red Bull. Shoot me now!

As you even suggested they should have MORE patience than McHonda i think Didi Mateschitz will do the shooting himself.

[djos]

Why can't they buy Cosworth, but maybe run customer engines for a year or two? Essentially what McLaren did with Honda, but with a bit more patience.

Yes, I used the word patience when talking about Red Bull. Shoot me now!

Iirc, Cosworth's engine is little more than a CAD design.

I doubt even RBR have the deep pockets required to turn a clean sheet design into a competitive PU - on top of that they have nothing to gain from it long term as they arent a car OEM.

[djos]

As for dwindling viewing figures, the decline has been for over 5 years. And the switch to subscription services means this has had a greater impact over the last 2 years than anything else. Bernie want's paid subscribers over free to air.
The only way to overcome that is not be a paid subscriber, which many have done.

TBH i think that to move to pay tv has only made using the internet as a source more viable for folks - I personally refuse to give that crook Murdoch a single cent of my money after he stole the F1 rights away from FTA here in Aus.