Red Bull RB8 Renault (pre-launch speculation)

[MIKEY_!]

So why did the noses get lower when front DF was reduced and then higher again when they were raised (relative to the rear DF).

(proof)




It follows that a low nose (tip) will add DF by directing more air upwards and also creating a lower pressure under it. A high nose will direct much more air downwards and therefore around the sidepods and to the edge of the floor.
High nose = rear biased DF
Low nose = front biased DF

[ringo]

That low nose is very narrow.
And you have to remember that the wing flap extends underneath that nose. That element will turn air upward so there wont be any flow separation under the nose.

With the current rules with as standard symetrical midwing, there is no upwash to speak of to keep flow attached under the nose.
Add to that the fact that the nose must have a minimum crosscetional area no smaller than 500 cm2 ? 70mm from a certain distance from the front wheel center line, which basically means narrow nose tips are not allowed, you will have a broad bent down nose with a lot of bad air flow underneath it.

What we are seeing with this mclaren was simply because of the front wing regulations which permit all manners of wing elements.

If you look on what BMW's Albert computer did with their table top nose, then you will see that that confirmed the standard for the superior design. The BMW had the sidewash endplates too, and they were criticised as beeing egg cartons. Lo and beyold people didn't fully appreciate what ALBERT was getting at with the sidewash wings and high nose.

[shelly]

I think a very low nose, like in the 80s, maybe with a front pullrod, could be a possible solution.
Like ebd, revisiting old concepts with new rules and technologies could bring significant results.

With a very low nose, the lower suspension arm could be used to inflence the floor flow; a properly sculpted side could help developing teatray vortices just as the snow plough does now.

But I agree with MIKEY that the main technical issue will be regaining rear downforce; that could be achieved with shorter sidepods (maybe that leave the crash structure exposed as rumored for mclaren), which would move rearward the overall center of pressure of the floor.

Tha problem is that a shorter floor should give less downforce; but maybe a shorter floor has some advantages. Merc w02 can not be taken as a counter example to the viability of shorter floors because this year the context was different because of ebd

[aral]

Why do we not wait to see what the experienced designers come up with? After all, they are being paid to assess all possibilities, and they could possibly have more informed solutions. I doubt that the regulations will result in all cars looking the same.

[bjpower]

Why do we not wait to see what the experienced designers come up with? After all, they are being paid to assess all possibilities, and they could possibly have more informed solutions. I doubt that the regulations will result in all cars looking the same.

that would be no fun

[aral]

Why do we not wait to see what the experienced designers come up with? After all, they are being paid to assess all possibilities, and they could possibly have more informed solutions. I doubt that the regulations will result in all cars looking the same.

that would be no fun

Maybe not, but it would mean that some do not show themselves up!

I come to the site to read true technical matters, and this is a RB8 thread. Where are the technical posts on that car, which has not even been launched or seen yet?

[allstaruk08]

Why do we not wait to see what the experienced designers come up with? After all, they are being paid to assess all possibilities, and they could possibly have more informed solutions. I doubt that the regulations will result in all cars looking the same.

that would be no fun

Maybe not, but it would mean that some do not show themselves up!

I come to the site to read true technical matters, and this is a RB8 thread. Where are the technical posts on that car, which has not even been launched or seen yet?

Well why did you come onto the RB8 thread if you knew the car wasn't launched and there would be no "true technical matters" to read about? Just because you come on here for that doesn't mean other can't talk about technical aspects of what the car might possibly look like.

[aral]

Well why did you come onto the RB8 thread if you knew the car wasn't launched and there would be no "true technical matters" to read about? Just because you come on here for that doesn't mean other can't talk about technical aspects of what the car might possibly look like.

I understood that this was a forum for discussion about a particular car. Wild speculation is just that, speculation. Why not talk about facts that are known about the car?

[MIKEY_!]

Um... not really, hence the speculation.

[raymondu999]

Well why did you come onto the RB8 thread if you knew the car wasn't launched and there would be no "true technical matters" to read about? Just because you come on here for that doesn't mean other can't talk about technical aspects of what the car might possibly look like.

I understood that this was a forum for discussion about a particular car. Wild speculation is just that, speculation. Why not talk about facts that are known about the car?

Well it will be powered by a 2.4 V8 engine from Renault, it will be driven by Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber. We know the team who designs it, and the car will mostly be blue. It will ride on 4 tyres as supplied by Pirelli. Did I miss any facts?

[MIKEY_!]

I think you've just about covered it mate!

the car will mostly be blue

And we can be fairly sure it'll be quick.

[aral]

Well why did you come onto the RB8 thread if you knew the car wasn't launched and there would be no "true technical matters" to read about? Just because you come on here for that doesn't mean other can't talk about technical aspects of what the car might possibly look like.

I understood that this was a forum for discussion about a particular car. Wild speculation is just that, speculation. Why not talk about facts that are known about the car?

Well it will be powered by a 2.4 V8 engine from Renault, it will be driven by Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber. We know the team who designs it, and the car will mostly be blue. It will ride on 4 tyres as supplied by Pirelli. Did I miss any facts?

At last! Some actual facts about the RB 8.

[ell66]

Well why did you come onto the RB8 thread if you knew the car wasn't launched and there would be no "true technical matters" to read about? Just because you come on here for that doesn't mean other can't talk about technical aspects of what the car might possibly look like.

I understood that this was a forum for discussion about a particular car. Wild speculation is just that, speculation. Why not talk about facts that are known about the car?

Its ALL speculation at this point, but some times you can make educated guesses, or just talk about possibilities.

If you dont like it then dont open the thread until the car gets launched in month or so.

[aral]

Well why did you come onto the RB8 thread if you knew the car wasn't launched and there would be no "true technical matters" to read about? Just because you come on here for that doesn't mean other can't talk about technical aspects of what the car might possibly look like.

I understood that this was a forum for discussion about a particular car. Wild speculation is just that, speculation. Why not talk about facts that are known about the car?

Its ALL speculation at this point, but some times you can make educated guesses, or just talk about possibilities.

If you dont like it then dont open the thread until the car gets launched in month or so.

Of course I will open the thread, to see if there are technical details which I can ascertain. As regards the "speculation", have a look at the comments on the thread, and tell me how many of these are "educated" speculation. Most are disagreeing with each other and are trying to second guess the designer, basically claiming that he knows little and that some posters on this site know more than Newey.
I won't speculate, but I am sure that Adrian will be fully aware how to utilise the changed aero form the lower nose, and if he goes for one nose or the other, I would bet my bottom dollar, that there will be many claiming that he is wrong.
Just remember, it is the overall package that will work, not one specific detail.

[ced381]

RB8 will be an evolution despite rule changes - Newey
January 2, 2012

Adrian Newey: "The changes for next year are principally a ban on exhaust blown diffusers and a change to the nose height"



Adrian Newey is viewing Red Bull's 2012 car as an evolution of his previous three cars, despite changes to the regulations.

Since Formula One's aerodynamic regulations were given an overhaul in 2009, Red Bull has produced race winning cars each season and won championships in 2010 and 2011. Key to its success has been its evolution of a successful design over the past three years and a main feature of those cars has been the exhaust blown diffuser. In 2012 exhaust blown diffusers will be banned, but Newey says that will not mean a change of tack for RB8.

"It's still an evolution," he told ESPNF1. "The changes for next year are principally a ban on exhaust blown diffusers and a change to the nose height. I don't feel that that means you have to have a wholesale change of the underpinnings of the car. So RB8 will be the fourth generation of the car that started off as RB5."

Asked if he was frustrated that the FIA had banned a technology that Red Bull had pioneered over the last three years, Newey said: "I guess its par for the course really. F1 has a long history of a team, whether it's us or someone else, who comes up with an idea and then it gets clamped down. That's the nature of the business."

After a number of retirements due to reliability issues in 2010, the 2011 Red Bull was near-bullet proof. Newey said the team is hoping to maintain that into 2012.

"You can never count on reliability because it comes through a lot of hard work and discipline," he added. "It's that balance of trying to push everything as hard as you dare in the pursuit of performance without losing reliability in the process. In 2010 we threw away a lot of points with problems, but they were silly problems, they weren't problems due to the fundamental reliability of the car."

Source: ESPN F1