Sauber F1 Team 2015

[Fernando]

What about this, let's say the judge decides that VDG must have a seat this year. Great chance that a judge will decide to impose a penalty to Sauber in case they don't obey to this, well how expensive can that be? 500.000/20 per race? Based on his salary? That's just peanuts, can't see how Sauber can be forced to let VDG race. Unless there is some rules of the FIA about obeying court orders.

[bill shoe]

An earlier poster said something to the effect that a $300 million business would not be run this way unless Sauber had good reason to think they could get out of the GVDG contract. I don't think so, it was just a matter of Sauber doing anything to survive and make the grid this year. When it's survival mode and there is no significant penalty for lying, then businesses lie. And cheat, and steal, etc. It's the human condition, not a business judgement or a Sauber judgement.

The Sauber strategy is not to attempt any serious argument that they didn't violate the GVDG contract, rather they are attempting to create such an ugly international mess that no single judge in any single country can fix it, therefore the two "new" Sauber drivers will be a fait accompli.

It's like a three-year-old child who is told to put away a toy but instead has a temper tantrum and throws the remaining toys from the toybox onto the floor. At that point the parent can put the child in timeout or do whatever discipline they prefer, but the original intention of getting toys put away in a timely manner is no longer feasible to achieve. Now image the parent trying to simultaneously deal with kids in 20 different countries.

Kaltenborn has well and truly thrown Sauber's toys on the floor and she is challenging a judge to try and fix it.

[FW17]

The situation was dire for the team; needed money to get through the winter (where as they say 40% of the years budget is spent)

Maybe they had a contract with VdG with a different payment plan which would not have helped then team

So they signed ME and FN with huge upfront payment terms which got the team till now.

The plan must have been to pay off VdG but since he is a pay driver I guess the contract was not clear on the damages portion

[KeiKo403]

I imagine it would be quite a hostile environment for VdG to go and work in now. I think he's saying he wants the seat but probably just wants his money back plus damages to take else where, or maybe even to buy the team when they're about to collapse.

If his money back causes Sauber to shut up shop then I fear the blame will be placed on him and not Monisha.

I've heard that desperate times calls for desperate measures but Sauber have really put all of their staff in risk here! There is no other team that they can go to considering their base in Switzerland, and when the brown sticky stuff hits the big spinny thing....well, it's been a long time coming for Sauber hasn't it. I feel that Monisha is on a power trip, using her knowledge of law to to try and play unfairly.

Roll on Wednesday! Lets just hope that Mr E doesn't have a word with Mr Oz Justice!

[FW17]

I imagine it would be quite a hostile environment for VdG to go and work in now. I think he's saying he wants the seat but probably just wants his money back plus damages to take else where, or maybe even to buy the team when they're about to collapse.

If his money back causes Sauber to shut up shop then I fear the blame will be placed on him and not Monisha.

I've heard that desperate times calls for desperate measures but Sauber have really put all of their staff in risk here! There is no other team that they can go to considering their base in Switzerland, and when the brown sticky stuff hits the big spinny thing....well, it's been a long time coming for Sauber hasn't it. I feel that Monisha is on a power trip, using her knowledge of law to to try and play unfairly.

Roll on Wednesday! Lets just hope that Mr E doesn't have a word with Mr Oz Justice!

Where did you get the idea that VdG paid Sauber?

[Jonnycraig]

Some of Saubers attempts at defence were so tragic as to be hilarious.

"He's never driven a 2015 Ferrari engine, he could kill someone"

Quite incredible to hear that Ericsson & Nasr had no idea VDG & Sutil had contracts already and we're still on the scene. In a less shady business than F1 that would qualify as a quite major act of fraud.

the first thing that popped up in my mind were the images of Nasr who crashed his car into Wolff during a testing day in Barcelona:

https://twitter.com/grandprixradio/stat ... 4659009537

Wolff held her hands up after that and admitted it was her fault.

[efuloni]

I guess this has to do with human basic rights (the right to work) and the worldwide right to free market (your right to employ and unemploy).
That being said, its absolutely unthinkable, by my point of legal view, to force a company to give vd Garde a seat. Its not that simple. This is a job. It has salary. It has to do with thousands of other people, including another drivers.

This kind of lawsuit must end in an agreement or in a sentence to solve the issue with indemnization. That's what's going to happen.

Sauber could not force vd Garde to race if he didn't want, even with a contract. He is not a slave. I know that the other way around is not the same, but I just can't see a way, by all the conjucture of facts and international rights, to demand Sauber to allow him to drive no matter what.

All the court can say is: let him drive OR pay the clause. There's no chance any judge say: 'let him drive, he has a contract'. That simply does not exist.

[Per]

I don't know about that, this is not an office job. Not giving him the seat means taking away from him the chance to compete in the 2015 Formula One World Championship. It is more than just a job with a salary, it is also a service that Sauber (allegedly) agreed to provide to Giedo van der Garde.

[Manoah2u]

funny how Sauber responded exactly like i'd expect them to do. They actually took literally the seat issue which was laughed upon by certain members here.

it never is about whether it's a reasonable thing, it's about what sauber easily can bring to the table to dispose of the arguments brought upon them by vdG's party.

They have a point about not being able to fix a seat; they could argue the facilities to provide a seat are at their base in switzerland and that's too far and costly away to arrange right now. case closed.

their argument of safety is a good one, since there is offcourse the point GvdG has not tested the 2015 contender in any way thus has no clue how it behaves. It could impose an unwanted and uncalculated danger to the grid. AUS's safety rules regarding road safety are quite....interesting [remember Hamilton's speeding issue?]

Smart and probably fully correct statement about GvdG's company. That's the company that is having the huge debt, also.

funny to see how people tend to side with a driver that has a history of taking teams to court, and wanting to see sauber bleed, that would include the entire 300-staff sauber team members.

- wait, are you trying to say Ericsson or Nasr are actually employees of GvdG's company?

eh obviously not. what do ericsson and nasr have to do with this? GvdG's company has made a deal with Sauber somewhere in 2014 possibly as early as 2013. The arbitrary ruling is about GvdG, Sauber states they have no deal with Guido but with his company, something that probably is technically correct and thus bins the entire ruling in the trash, leaving guido empty-handed. That would make it a costly activity for VDG to engaged such a ruling.

Like i expected, Sauber have themselves fully covered. A shame to see how they are being despised about without sufficient knowledge from either party. I've made my opinions clear on VdG's actions and i stand by them fully, i won't repeat them. That does not mean Sauber did not pull a 'nasty' move, but imho this issue is much nastier.

Lets just see Sauber race and score points.

[Slife]

I guess this has to do with human basic rights (the right to work) and the worldwide right to free market (your right to employ and unemploy).
That being said, its absolutely unthinkable, by my point of legal view, to force a company to give vd Garde a seat. Its not that simple. This is a job. It has salary. It has to do with thousands of other people, including another drivers.

This kind of lawsuit must end in an agreement or in a sentence to solve the issue with indemnization. That's what's going to happen.

Sauber could not force vd Garde to race if he didn't want, even with a contract. He is not a slave. I know that the other way around is not the same, but I just can't see a way, by all the conjucture of facts and international rights, to demand Sauber to allow him to drive no matter what.

All the court can say is: let him drive OR pay the clause. There's no chance any judge say: 'let him drive, he has a contract'. That simply does not exist.

Sure maybe he can't drive right now, due to safety regs, but the Swiss tribunal, seems to have ruled, that vdG is to be one of Sauber's drivers for the 2015 F1 Championship

[Sniffit]

I don't know about that, this is not an office job. Not giving him the seat means taking away from him the chance to compete in the 2015 Formula One World Championship. It is more than just a job with a salary, it is also a service that Sauber (allegedly) agreed to provide to Giedo van der Garde.

You are right, it is not an office job. He's a driver, a commodity just like a professional football or hockey player, he goes or does what the team tells him to do. If he gets to drive or are benched are up to the manager if he's fired he has the right to restitution but he's still fired.

I'd love to see a court force New England Patriots, Real Madrid or SC Bern to start a player they do not want because they "provide a service" to him.

[Phil]

I've been doing some reading in the local newspapers and have taken care to avoid the tabloid press. Suffice to say, there isn't any new info besides the things that are being discussed, namely that the court is expected to give its verdict on Wednesday.

Link: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/motor ... y/31805439

Despite that, there's a bit of information that might shed some light on the contract VdG signed with Sauber; From what I gather, VdG's contract with Sauber (or that of the company backing him) was signed back at the beginning of 2014 and apparently there are certain clauses that would nominate him into a race seat for the 2015 season, if activated. Apparently, that clause or option was activated on June 28th 2014. Given the thin ice Sauber was on (and still is to a degree) in 2014, I could well imagine that these options or clauses are of financial nature. Wasn't Sauber struggling to pay for Ferrari engines somewhere throughout the 2014 season?

Perhaps Sauber desperately needed money, so they activated the clause by accepting money/funds from one of the companies sponsoring VdG, therefore activating the clause in the contract that would nominate him into a race seat. Then fast forward to end of the year when Ericsson and Nasr become a available, both with huge amounts of cash backing them, and Sauber decided to terminate the contract with VdG.

If this is what is happening, I can see some of the headache this must be causing. If Sauber can't pay back the money they accepted throughout 2014 that nominated VdG as a driver, then I can see the point of VdG lawyer who sais; "Can't pay us? Then give us the race seat.". Of course, the judge doesn't really care that backing that claim with a verdict would cause additional problems for Sauber when their two nominated drivers start packing out their lawyers because one of them had to give way...

...then again, it would be absurd to force Sauber to have to give that seat to VdG on such short notice... :S

[knabbel]

The damage that VdG also has is that he had a 20115 contract in the summer already, after that he was not active searching for a race seat. When Sauber decided not to race with VdG it was too late to search for another seat.

[Phil]

Indeed. Although my guess is that the contract is probably quite a bit more complex than simply "receive funds -> race in 2015" and "no funds - no race seat in 2015". There are probably lots of clauses in that contract, given he was hired as a testdriver for 2014 which would probably also include payment to the team. So, perhaps from Saubers view, they either didn't realize what they were doing, there is doubt over the activation of these clauses (perhaps they aren't all as bullet-proof), or they were only thinking short-term (e.g. surivival mode), trying to secure enough funds to make it to each race while still in desperate search of additional sponsors and WCC points.

I'd also like to say that the above linked article is probably interpreting bits and pieces too. They wouldn't have any insight to the contract, so I wouldn't put too much faith in the exact dates etc. But it might explain the complexity Sauber is facing in their fight with VdG...

[Per]

I don't know about that, this is not an office job. Not giving him the seat means taking away from him the chance to compete in the 2015 Formula One World Championship. It is more than just a job with a salary, it is also a service that Sauber (allegedly) agreed to provide to Giedo van der Garde.

You are right, it is not an office job. He's a driver, a commodity just like a professional football or hockey player, he goes or does what the team tells him to do. If he gets to drive or are benched are up to the manager if he's fired he has the right to restitution but he's still fired.

I'd love to see a court force New England Patriots, Real Madrid or SC Bern to start a player they do not want because they "provide a service" to him.

You are talking about team sports which is totally irrelevant as the WDC is an individual competition.