2017 Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 26-28 May

[FrukostScones]

Justed wanted to clarify that AMuS is using this conclusion because Mercedes looked mighty on a few occasions on Friday (namely Barcelona) and then after Pirelli looked at the data of various teams, then decided to lower the pressures for Saturday and Sunday, with the result then that Ferrari ended up much closer. Not quite sure if this logic is entirely sound and accurate.

I have to agree. The view is incredibly simplistic, as lower pressures doesn't always mean faster. It reads half like a writer scrambling to come up with something to say, and half like a fanboys daydream. It made no mention of how lower pressures affect the contact patch, slip angle, or even operating temperature, all of which have a substantial impact on how 'fast' the car is.

did you read the article?
I advise to read both:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 34439.html
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 27420.html

[dans79]

did you read the article?
I advise to read both:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 34439.html
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 27420.html

I've read both of those, the first one is what Phil and I where referring to. I consider them both poorly written, as they contain more click bait and vague generalizations than anything else.

[FrukostScones]

did you read the article?
I advise to read both:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 34439.html
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 27420.html

I've read both of those, the first one is what Phil and I where referring to. I consider them both poorly written, as they contain more click bait and vague generalizations than anything else.

how can they contain click bait?

[dans79]

how can they contain click bait?

Who feeds Pirelli with wrong data?

Lower air pressure: Ferrari benefits

Ferrari aerodynamics more stable with more tire movement

[FrukostScones]

how can they contain click bait?

Who feeds Pirelli with wrong data?

Lower air pressure: Ferrari benefits

Ferrari aerodynamics more stable with more tire movement

Not even the 1st (sub headline) is clickbait. And the rest is no click bait at all (they is nothing to click ).

[dans79]

(they is nothing to click ).

Lol, you know what I mean.

[FrukostScones]

(they is nothing to click ).

Lol, you know what I mean.

yeah, but it is not what you mean, every question in the headline of the paragraphs is adressed (answered) in the paragraphs, of course it contains speculation (and maybe sensationalization as you apperently see it) but that is what keeps the reader interested,there is no deceiving done. The generalistions are only that with lower pressures the cars tend to go faster around the track.

Regarding the bogus (down force) data: Testing in BCN was done woth lower tyre pressure, and as soon as the season starts two teams want to raise the pressures through submitting bogus data to Pirrelli, it it obvious that they want to make a gain through this.

[dans79]

of course it contains speculation (and maybe sensationalization as you apperently see it) but that is what keeps the reader interested,there is no deceiving done.

It keeps some readers interested! I have little patients for stuff like this, and that's probably because I can remember when Journalists had a lot more integrity.

[Phil]

I'd normally agree, but I have to say that after reading more of AMuS F1 columns this year, I have found them to be very spot on in both analysis and overall technical know-how and their conclusions. They were also the ones that picked up on the overweight issues of the Mercedes before most others did.

Having said that, I'm pretty much open to believe that some teams have been feeding Pirelli somewhat dubious numbers in order to achieve a higher mandatory pressure set for the weekend (if it does benefit them). In the very same article though, the Pirelli guy as quoted by AMuS does say that he thinks the "motivation" behind quoting too high numbers are not malicious intent (or to gain an advantage) because they do analyze the proper numbers on Fridays and adjust accordingly. As a result, quoting too high numbers (of DF levels I'd assume) just for the fun of it would be counter productive.

I think the big topic here though is, how much would Mercedes benefit from higher pressures? AMuS makes the point that in 2016, Mercedes was the dominant force in getting the tires into the right temperature window on those tires. Now this year things are obviously different given the new cars and very new tires...

[basti313]

I'd normally agree, but I have to say that after reading more of AMuS F1 columns this year, I have found them to be very spot on in both analysis and overall technical know-how and their conclusions. They were also the ones that picked up on the overweight issues of the Mercedes before most others did.

Well, the only clear claim here is the bet on Mercedes being manipulating the numbers. This is an obvious bet, as only the teams with the highest downforce can jeopardize the numbers in a relevant way. Even RedBull is currently 30 points down on downforce. This would not be a game changer in a 10% wrong number transmitted to Pirelli....the numbers must be completely wrong if it is not Merc and Ferrari.

...the Pirelli guy as quoted by AMuS does say that he thinks the "motivation" behind quoting too high numbers are not malicious intent (or to gain an advantage) because they do analyze the proper numbers on Fridays and adjust accordingly. As a result, quoting too high numbers (of DF levels I'd assume) just for the fun of it would be counter productive.

No one in F1 does anything for fun or unmotivated. Pirelli did lower the pressures, but not as much as if they had the correct numbers from the beginning.

[dans79]

Well, the only clear claim here is the bet on Mercedes being manipulating the numbers.

With the Merc having a very narrow set-up window, it makes no sense to me that they would intentionally falsify data. If Pirelli is changing the tire pressures Saturday morning, Merc would be throwing some of that hard won set-up data from Friday out the window. Thus making their job on Saturday that much harder.

[basti313]

Well, the only clear claim here is the bet on Mercedes being manipulating the numbers.

With the Merc having a very narrow set-up window, it makes no sense to me that they would intentionally falsify data. If Pirelli is changing the tire pressures Saturday morning, Merc would be throwing some of that hard won set-up data from Friday out the window. Thus making their job on Saturday that much harder.

Up to my understanding is, that Merc needs harder tires to get a wider setup window.

[Just_a_fan]

All reads to me like Ferrari playing politics just like the old days. Who else remembers the old days of "if we don't get our way we'll leave F1" threats? Ferrari briefing that they believe it is Mercedes playing games could just as easily be Ferrari trying to get things to go the other way for their benefit. To think that in any such situation in F1 there is only one guilty party is naive.

All will become clear during Monaco and, more relevantly, the rest of the season. Until then, it's all just smoke.

[dans79]

Up to my understanding is, that Merc needs harder tires to get a wider setup window.

it's my understanding that a tire at a higher pressures would require a larger slip angle to get the same grip as a lower pressure tire (all else being equal). The larger slip angle should lead to more heat generation, and as seen in the quotes below Mercedes is already generating a lot of heat. So if anything I would think Mercedes wants lower pressures not higher.


http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/03/31/2 ... ranscript/

11 From Lewis Hamilton Tyres are overheating.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/04/21/2 ... ranscript/

From Valtteri Bottas These rears are overheating. For sure the soft is going to be better.

[Phil]

Good points by everyone. One other thing that was mentioned in the AMuS article is that lower tire pressures increases the force on the sidewalls and would make the car wobble more under force (vs a tire with more pressure that is inherently more stable). They speculate that the Ferrari deals very well with this wobbling/(sideway) movement very well as evident by their ability to retain ideal tire temps, good duration and obviously performance too.

Make of that as you will.

I do wonder though how much this info is still accurate though after Barcelona and the new updates. As said, Hamilton had very good performance off the board with both tire compounds. I think some of the above speculation and theorizing by AMuS stems from the point that Mercedes looked very mighty on Friday and then lost that advantage on Saturday and Sunday where both Ferrari and Mercedes looked nigh on equal. Maybe the idea is that the parity is somewhat due to the relaxation of the tire pressures and if Pirelli was more restrictive, then Mercedes would be in a more dominating position?