FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

[bonjon1979]

The longer it goes with out them explaining exactly what happened the more damaging it'll become when the truth finally comes out. Which it will. Then there will be so many questions to answer but mainly this one, 'who knew what, and when?'. Remember the furore around 'liegate'? What if Seb knew they were cheating the sensors all along and made all those public statements to the contrary? What about the team principal? How many people knew about it? Honestly, it seems so naive on both the FIA and Ferrari's part that they could think that this statement would settle the matter. This'll roll on all through the year until the truth comes out, particularly if Ferrari's engine power is down as it was in testing.

[Xwang]

Is there a limit to the power these PU's must deliver? So when Mercedes AMG was the most powerfull (we could see that on telemetry) did they cheat?

Yes, there's a limit to the thermal efficiency of the PU's, Mercedes are very near the practical limits so for Ferrari to leap frog them is evidence in itself imo they were cheating! You can only get so much power out of the mandated fuel flow limit.

I do not accept that Mercedes engine is near the practical limit or should be considered the limit beyond which you are cheating (especially last year when they suffered due to a limited radiators design, as they told themself)

[Chene_Mostert]

Is there a limit to the power these PU's must deliver? So when Mercedes AMG was the most powerfull (we could see that on telemetry) did they cheat?

Yes, there's a limit to the thermal efficiency of the PU's, Mercedes are very near the practical limits so for Ferrari to leap frog them is evidence in itself imo they were cheating! You can only get so much power out of the mandated fuel flow limit.

So the moment any one makes more power than Mercedes AMG they are cheating. I get it... they are wizards!

[turbof1]

I'd love to see a modified point and qualifying result table for 2019 if Ferrari were not in it.

Hamilton was probably robbed of about 5 pole positions for a start.

I do want to warn against these kind of assumptions. Yes, I fully understand it feels and looks like full on cover up at this point. I am neither preaching naïvity. But, as it is now we don't fully grasp what the situation really is (due to the absolute lack of information).

By design, the lack of information is by design.

I'm going to answer to this the same way the FIA did:
"The specifics of my comment will remain between the parties, me and me"

[djos]

Mercedes are very near the practical limits so for Ferrari to leap frog them is evidence in itself imo they were cheating!

That is rediculous. I know what you are getting at, but let us not use one team's accomplishments as tool to determine cheating.

Maybe my wording was rubbish, but point taken.

The other factor was the sudden and significant performance boost Ferrari found - this was red flag as all the OEM's are struggling to find small gains at this point in the development cycle.

[djos]

Is there a limit to the power these PU's must deliver? So when Mercedes AMG was the most powerfull (we could see that on telemetry) did they cheat?

Yes, there's a limit to the thermal efficiency of the PU's, Mercedes are very near the practical limits so for Ferrari to leap frog them is evidence in itself imo they were cheating! You can only get so much power out of the mandated fuel flow limit.

I do not accept that Mercedes engine is near the practical limit or should be considered the limit beyond which you are cheating (especially last year when they suffered due to a limited radiators design, as they told themself)

They are in the 50% range from what has been reported, iirc the practical limit for an ICE is close to 60%.

[turbof1]

Mercedes are very near the practical limits so for Ferrari to leap frog them is evidence in itself imo they were cheating!

That is rediculous. I know what you are getting at, but let us not use one team's accomplishments as tool to determine cheating.

Maybe my wording was rubbish, but point taken.

The other factor was the sudden and significant performance boost Ferrari found - this was red flag as all the OEM's are struggling to find small gains at this point in the development cycle.

Honda did actually still find quite a bit, but it's also reasonable to assume because they are (or were) a bit more behind the curve they ware able to find more.

If I am going to be bluntly honest: the performance drop from Austin (oeh, we did not lose power, we just have more downforce!) and from testing (oeh, we lost performance due more reliability!) and also from testing (oeh, we even piled on more downforce and therefore are even slower!) makes for a very suspicious story and it starts to be just a joke. At one point there's no credibility anymore. I'm not accusing Ferrari of anything -I simply can't because I don't definitively know what's going on- but this clown show is just utterly rediculous.

[Schumix]

Not just a simple thing like Ferrari did something 'wrong last year' then two parties will be in trouble. Ferrari because of what they did but the bigger problem is that the FIA trying to cover it up with that statement. If the FIA understands this then there will be a big battle to protect the integrity of the FIA.

What did they do wrong?
Did any team lodge a protest?
Did race stewards ever report tampering with FF meter?
Did stewards ever raise concern that FF is exceeded?

What did they do wrong? Well that’s what the teams are trying to find out and the FIA is not disclosing.

Nobody is stupid in this political big fight story: the other teams are trying to understand what Ferrari is doing with his PU in order to copy it. This is F1 and things have always been like this. But I am sure 100% that the FIA will not reveal Ferrari trick.

I don't understang why people here are so virulent with the FIA and Ferrari while it makes sense to understand that the FIA didn't find something wrong with Ferrari engine and is forced to protect Ferrari technology patent.
According to an engine expert, Ferrari trick is about fuel mix enthalpy. Nothing to see with FF meter or whatever... To be clear, it is Ferrari cooling system which makes the difference

[Xwang]

Yes, there's a limit to the thermal efficiency of the PU's, Mercedes are very near the practical limits so for Ferrari to leap frog them is evidence in itself imo they were cheating! You can only get so much power out of the mandated fuel flow limit.

I do not accept that Mercedes engine is near the practical limit or should be considered the limit beyond which you are cheating (especially last year when they suffered due to a limited radiators design, as they told themself)

They are in the 50% range from what has been reported, iirc the practical limit for an ICE is close to 60%.

Code: Select all

In 2013, one year before the introduction of hybrid power units in Formula One, the thermal efficiency of an average road car reached roughly 30 per cent, meaning that only about one third of the petrol in the car was used to propel it. In the summer of 2017, the staff at Mercedes-AMG High Performance Powertrains in Brixworth, UK ran a Mercedes-Benz F1 power unit on their dyno - and it showed an astonishing number. The F1 M08 EQ Power+ power unit reached a thermal efficiency of over 50 percent, making it the one of the most efficient internal combustion engines ever. (https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2018/10/insight-five-examples-why-f1-is-accelerating-the-future/)

So they have gained 20% of efficiency and there is still 10% available (100cv).
IMHO there is still to extract half of what has been achieved with the hybrid era so it is plausible that others have a more powerful engine than Mercedes even without cheating.

[LM10]

I would be pointing at the Mercedes and saying, isn't DAS the same situation, and if they're not having a gentleman's agreement not to use it, why are we?

Please don't confuse this with DAS, legal or illegal this is a stystem that Mercedes have been completely open with, they explained what it does and they've even nameed it.

Ferrari on the other hand have never acknowlaged anything, all they said last year was there's nothign to see move on

And then this !

Since when do teams need to be open about elements of their cars? Do you think Mercedes would have lost a single word about DAS, if it was not totally eye catching? Teams try to cover every part of their cars as much as possible. They don’t point with the finger and tell “look, that’s our new fancy innovation everybody”.
FIA monitoring and scrutinizing is there for a reason.

[Chene_Mostert]

What did they do wrong?
Did any team lodge a protest?
Did race stewards ever report tampering with FF meter?
Did stewards ever raise concern that FF is exceeded?

What did they do wrong? Well that’s what the teams are trying to find out and the FIA is not disclosing.

Nobody is stupid in this political big fight story: the other teams are trying to understand what Ferrari is doing with his PU in order to copy it. This is F1 and things have always been like this. But I am sure 100% that the FIA will not reveal Ferrari trick.

I don't understang why people here are so virulent with the FIA and Ferrari while it makes sense to understand that the FIA didn't find something wrong with Ferrari engine and is forced to protect Ferrari technology patent.
According to an engine expert, Ferrari trick is about fuel mix enthalpy. Nothing to see with FF meter or whatever... To be clear, it is Ferrari cooling system which makes the difference

Finally some common sense.
I also notice that the ones foaming at the mouth is hoping to connect some dots to make a wish come true.

[snowy]

Then there will be so many questions to answer but mainly this one, 'who knew what, and when?'.

It is classic Watergate!

PUgate, Fuelgate, Flowgate, Pugate, Pressuregate, Foamingatthemouthgate! ...

! Flowrategate !

[Schumix]

The FIA aren't stupid. If they released such a statement they are probably anticipated that there were going to be clowns trying to lead a protest with the intent of revealing what the settlement was. But I do understand Merc making this move, and have everyone looking into something which happened last year rather than focusing on what is going on at the moment.

I like how everyone praises Merc for the (very very borderline) DAS system but is totally convinced that Ferrari was doing something wrong last year for a statement that reveals absolutely nothing!

It has an aura of desparation about it regarding the FIA, maybe literally a case of "doomed if they did, doomed if they didn't".

I agree we should not automatically accept guild towards Ferrari. However, given this is so out of line for the FIA to do so, with the timing and none-disclosal of information, there is something behind this. People are right to be suspicious at the very least. Everybody should be rational and open minded, but let us not faint naïvity.

The thing behing this could be that the FIA is protecting Ferrari technology patent. Just simple like that...
Of course, people are right to be suspicious. Now, what do we do when even FIA has no proof for a probable illegality of the Ferrari PU? Someting which is not declared illegal is legal...

[JonoNic]

Mercedes never race faster than they have to, they do just enough to win. So their pace is never questioned. Yet they took the title last year quite easily again.

Why should Ferrari push all out with their new found speed at that point of the season? Save your PU and consolidate your position in the championship. This would have been a reasonable response from anyone on this forum last year. Until the FIA released that statement.

The way I see it.
Ferrari: guilty/found success in a loophole and would like to keep their intellectual property.

FIA: Incompetent - period

Whether Ferrari is guilty or not. The FIA looks like they are not fit for governance.

Not the way to gain a larger fan base into F1. It's now comparable to some decisions made in NASCAR.

[Just_a_fan]

What did they do wrong?
Did any team lodge a protest?
Did race stewards ever report tampering with FF meter?
Did stewards ever raise concern that FF is exceeded?

What did they do wrong? Well that’s what the teams are trying to find out and the FIA is not disclosing.

Nobody is stupid in this political big fight story: the other teams are trying to understand what Ferrari is doing with his PU in order to copy it. This is F1 and things have always been like this. But I am sure 100% that the FIA will not reveal Ferrari trick.

More likely hoping to have it outlawed and thus prevent a spending spree. Or even to make the FIA admit that Ferrari cheated, and thus should be thrown out of 2019's results and the lower teams get to have more prize money instead.

Lots of reasons why the other teams want to know what the agreement is and why it's all being kept hidden. The fact that it's being hidden is enough to get people interested - that's not politics, that's human nature.