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F1 has lost many talented drivers before they had the chance to become famous and immortal. To me Stefan Bellof comes to mind, a man that was much quicker than Senna in rain soaked Monaco and who would have almost certanly won that race if it would be continuing, or he might crash with Senna since both of them had too much courage and pride.
Got himself killed because he tried to push over the limit in his pursuit of being the best.
Tbh his car was probably one of the best on the grid for the conditions that day.
F1 has lost many talented drivers before they had the chance to become famous and immortal. To me Stefan Bellof comes to mind, a man that was much quicker than Senna in rain soaked Monaco and who would have almost certanly won that race if it would be continuing, or he might crash with Senna since both of them had too much courage and pride.
Got himself killed because he tried to push over the limit in his pursuit of being the best.
Tbh his car was probably one of the best on the grid for the conditions that day.
What are people's sentiments on Jim Clark? Other than raw speed what impact did he make driving styles wise or career wise?
I am ashamed to say this but i have a lotus DVD in which he was fetaured and he didn't leave this huge mark on me as much as other greats... I might have to watch again.
What are people's sentiments on Jim Clark? Other than raw speed what impact did he make driving styles wise or career wise?
I am ashamed to say this but i have a lotus DVD in which he was fetaured and he didn't leave this huge mark on me as much as other greats... I might have to watch again.
He was meant to be super smooth from what I recall, his percentages are pretty amazing to say the least.
F1 has lost many talented drivers before they had the chance to become famous and immortal. To me Stefan Bellof comes to mind, a man that was much quicker than Senna in rain soaked Monaco and who would have almost certanly won that race if it would be continuing, or he might crash with Senna since both of them had too much courage and pride.
Got himself killed because he tried to push over the limit in his pursuit of being the best.
Tbh his car was probably one of the best on the grid for the conditions that day.
Yes, but in the other way if i am not mistaken Bellof drove an older spec of Porsche car in Spa and was still much faster than the team with the newest machine. He was described as brilliant but too reckles, which cost him of his life in that race.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows
2011 just shows even at his absolute worst, he still won 3 races in a car not capable of wining the championship as the RB was a mile ahead of the rest!
Lets take the 2011 canadian grand prix as a massive moment, at the time of the Mclarens coming together, Lewis was faster than Jenson and challenging to get past. It was an acciedent betweent he 2 of them, but if it was Jenson who retired and Lewis continued and went on to win, then Lewis would have finished in front of Jenson in the Championship, despite Lewis having a shocking year.
Who would you consider as the GOAT ?
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2011 just shows even at his absolute worst, he still won 3 races in a car not capable of wining the championship as the RB was a mile ahead of the rest!
Lets take the 2011 canadian grand prix as a massive moment, at the time of the Mclarens coming together, Lewis was faster than Jenson and challenging to get past. It was an acciedent betweent he 2 of them, but if it was Jenson who retired and Lewis continued and went on to win, then Lewis would have finished in front of Jenson in the Championship, despite Lewis having a shocking year.
Lol you bit but yes Canada summed it all up didn't it. JB looking in his right side mirror then moving left, puts his teammate in the wall, survives, puts Fernando out, gets a penalty, last place, Seb runs deep, Jenson wins! Martin Whitmarsh in tears, omg the greatest race ever
Lewis' 2011 is generally hugely exaggerated, because of the points table as you say, and a certain amount of not being in everybody's in-group
2011 just shows even at his absolute worst, he still won 3 races in a car not capable of wining the championship as the RB was a mile ahead of the rest!
Lets take the 2011 canadian grand prix as a massive moment, at the time of the Mclarens coming together, Lewis was faster than Jenson and challenging to get past. It was an acciedent betweent he 2 of them, but if it was Jenson who retired and Lewis continued and went on to win, then Lewis would have finished in front of Jenson in the Championship, despite Lewis having a shocking year.
Who would you consider as the GOAT ?
Yes it was his worst season but that doesn't mean it can just disappear from his record.
It's not like he was a rookie either, this was his 5th season in F1 and he should have comfortably handled Button IMO.
Even if Hamilton had won Canada and Button DNF he still would have finished ahead of Lewis.
2011 just shows even at his absolute worst, he still won 3 races in a car not capable of wining the championship as the RB was a mile ahead of the rest!
Lets take the 2011 canadian grand prix as a massive moment, at the time of the Mclarens coming together, Lewis was faster than Jenson and challenging to get past. It was an acciedent betweent he 2 of them, but if it was Jenson who retired and Lewis continued and went on to win, then Lewis would have finished in front of Jenson in the Championship, despite Lewis having a shocking year.
Lol you bit but yes Canada summed it all up didn't it. JB looking in his right side mirror then moving left, puts his teammate in the wall, survives, puts Fernando out, gets a penalty, last place, Seb runs deep, Jenson wins! Martin Whitmarsh in tears, omg the greatest race ever
Lewis' 2011 is generally hugely exaggerated, because of the points table as you say, and a certain amount of not being in everybody's in-group
I watched the race yestarday, both were to blame tbh. Button took the racing line but surely must have known Hamilton was making a move but he has the excuse of poor visibility.
Lewis you could also blame because he kept is foot on it and entered an obvious closing gap, why not just go on the outside of Button?
2011 just shows even at his absolute worst, he still won 3 races in a car not capable of wining the championship as the RB was a mile ahead of the rest!
Lets take the 2011 canadian grand prix as a massive moment, at the time of the Mclarens coming together, Lewis was faster than Jenson and challenging to get past. It was an acciedent betweent he 2 of them, but if it was Jenson who retired and Lewis continued and went on to win, then Lewis would have finished in front of Jenson in the Championship, despite Lewis having a shocking year.
Lol you bit but yes Canada summed it all up didn't it. JB looking in his right side mirror then moving left, puts his teammate in the wall, survives, puts Fernando out, gets a penalty, last place, Seb runs deep, Jenson wins! Martin Whitmarsh in tears, omg the greatest race ever
Lewis' 2011 is generally hugely exaggerated, because of the points table as you say, and a certain amount of not being in everybody's in-group
I watched the race yestarday, both were to blame tbh. Button took the racing line but surely must have known Hamilton was making a move, he has the excuse of poor visibility.
Lewis you could also blame because he kept is foot on it and entered an obvious closing gap, why not just go around the outside of Button?
The whole idea of the GOAT has already been shown to be fallacious. You can't compare between eras, or even between generations.
The media love the whole GOAT thing because it's full of opinions, often heated, and so is a gift that keeps giving for them. It's basically a click-bait term.
Likewise, the whole "it's the car / it's the driver" argument. No driver ever won a title in a bad car. The best drivers tend to get in to the best cars. Occasionally, a driver wins the title in a car that is almost the best - in 2008, for example, the Ferrari was probably (in general across the season) better than the McLaren. Others have done so in the past, but it's not a regular occurrence. Winning the occasional race in a non-top car does happen too, of course. Vettel in the STR in Monza comes to mind, as does Panis in Monaco, Maldonado in Valencia. But again, it's a rare thing and usually requires a set of unusual circumstances.
Go to the junior formulae and there is some scope to compare between teams as the cars are much closer together - that's why F1 teams watch the junior formulae, because they can see the better guys on the grid. Sure, there is s till some "money buys success" but it is much less than in F1, for example. This is why some young drivers are snapped up by the top teams early on and put in to development programmes etc. Sadly, this approach is destroying some careers too, but that's a different discussion.
But ultimately, it's all meaningless. All you can say is "driver X beat his team mate more (or less) than his team mate beat him". That's the only valid comparison. You can then look at who the team mates were to see if they were greyhounds or rabbits. The best drivers will better their team mate more than their team mate betters them. That goes through the generations and eras too - indeed it might be the only way you can compare across generations (but with the caveat of looking who the team mates were as part of it - no good comparing two team mates if one is consistently a second slower, for example).
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
But ultimately, it's all meaningless. All you can say is "driver X beat his team mate more (or less) than his team mate beat him". That's the only valid comparison. You can then look at who the team mates were to see if they were greyhounds or rabbits. The best drivers will better their team mate more than their team mate betters them. That goes through the generations and eras too - indeed it might be the only way you can compare across generations (but with the caveat of looking who the team mates were as part of it - no good comparing two team mates if one is consistently a second slower, for example).
On page 2 I posted a link to f1metrics.wordpress.com . Their comparison model works like you say. Compare team mates, then compare their team mates and do this over the years to try and find a general ranking. As you say, probably the best way to even start to answer what cannot really be answered.
Compare team mates, then compare their team mates and do this over the years to try and find a general ranking. As you say, probably the best way to even start to answer what cannot really be answered.
It has its flaws too, of course. It assumes that a driver doesn't develop/improve/get worse over time, for example. One might look at Barrichello, for example. He drove with Schuie for a number of years and didn't do well compared to him. Part of that was intra-team policies etc, and part just that Schuie was usually faster. Fast forward and Rubens is with Button at Honda. Button usually beats him. Has Rubens changed during that period? Is he the same driver? Is he better or worse over time? Then go to Rosberg with Schuie at Mercedes. Nico beat Schuie 3 seasons in a row. Is Nico better than Schuie? Is Nico therefore better than Rubens? Is Rosberg better than or equal to Button? Button went 2-1 down to Hamilton, Nico went 3-1 down. So is Hamilton better than Schuie because he beat Nico? Is Hamilton the best of all of those named in this example because he's either beaten them directly or beaten the drivers that beat the others? Then chuck Alonso in to it. Now what's the outcome?
Please note: I'm not suggesting the above is a good summary at all. There's no way of knowing who is "the best" because none of them competed directly with all of the others.
It's a total mind-scramble and entirely open to argument in every direction.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
Compare team mates, then compare their team mates and do this over the years to try and find a general ranking. As you say, probably the best way to even start to answer what cannot really be answered.
It has its flaws too, of course. It assumes that a driver doesn't develop/improve/get worse over time, for example. One might look at Barrichello, for example. He drove with Schuie for a number of years and didn't do well compared to him. Part of that was intra-team policies etc, and part just that Schuie was usually faster. Fast forward and Rubens is with Button at Honda. Button usually beats him. Has Rubens changed during that period? Is he the same driver? Is he better or worse over time? Then go to Rosberg with Schuie at Mercedes. Nico beat Schuie 3 seasons in a row. Is Nico better than Schuie? Is Nico therefore better than Rubens? Is Rosberg better than or equal to Button? Button went 2-1 down to Hamilton, Nico went 3-1 down. So is Hamilton better than Schuie because he beat Nico? Is Hamilton the best of all of those named in this example because he's either beaten them directly or beaten the drivers that beat the others? Then chuck Alonso in to it. Now what's the outcome?
Please note: I'm not suggesting the above is a good summary at all. There's no way of knowing who is "the best" because none of them competed directly with all of the others.
It's a total mind-scramble and entirely open to argument in every direction.
That is all correct tbh, there's too many variables to say anything definite but all you can ask of them is to beat their teammate.
That's why I just can't place Lewis at number one even though I want to, I just can't see any other ATG in their prime losing to their teammate so clearly.
Yes it may have been an anomaly but it still is a mark against his legacy.
Schumacher was just untouchable in his pomp and although he never faced a Prost or a Senna he dominated each and every teammate he faced. I really do think he reached a point of relentless speed never seen before in F1.
but yes Canada summed it all up didn't it. JB looking in his right side mirror then moving left, puts his teammate in the wall, survives, puts Fernando out, gets a penalty, last place, Seb runs deep, Jenson wins! Martin Whitmarsh in tears, omg the greatest race ever