2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[RedNEO]

The big European car manufacturers already stated a few years ago they stopped development of internal combustion engines in favour of EV’s. Nothing to do with politics.

It has everything to do with politics. Not sure what big manufacturers you are referring to because if you look today combustion engines are very much part of there plans.

Would you like to share any those plans with us?

Mercedes,Renault ect have publicly laid out there plans. They are available online for you to look at.

[Big Tea]

With ICE being phased out entirely in the car industry (although many will be “what about fuel cells, bio fuel etc”, there are nog big manufacturers that are backing this movement) its not logical that a new type of ICE is going to be developed for F1. I think it’s more a political move or fantasy as we all transition into electric motors.

But we are judging this on todays I.C.E. If we can develop a very low (I am not going to say no as it will not happen) emission unit and also renewable fuel to 'burn' in it things may change. If it going to happen, the most likely place is in F1

It will still be only 15-30% efficient compared to 85% or more for an EV. The only way to go beyond that is to add electric motors like they did in F1. So there's no point to keeping ICE around when EVs get adequate storage (which already happened for road cars).

But the efficiency of an electric motor is after it has electricity. The regenerated part included, but what ever form the production of electricity to charge the battery has to be added to this number. Even if it comes from renewable there is still a % to add to that figure for infrastructure and distribution.

[nzjrs]

It has everything to do with politics. Not sure what big manufacturers you are referring to because if you look today combustion engines are very much part of there plans.

Would you like to share any those plans with us?

Mercedes,Renault ect have publicly laid out there plans. They are available online for you to look at.

Just FYI gruntguru (and others) - there are 16 pages of discussion here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29554 where people are discussing this topic and often specifcially trying to discuss with RedNEO the relative tradeoffs of ICE and EV (and mixes). A number of forum members attempt to explain to him or to even understand what he believes without success. I'll just say there is a reason he is on -17.

[RedNEO]

Would you like to share any those plans with us?

Mercedes,Renault ect have publicly laid out there plans. They are available online for you to look at.

Just FYI gruntguru (and others) - there are 16 pages of discussion here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29554 where people are discussing this topic and often specifcially trying to discuss with RedNEO the relative tradeoffs of ICE and EV (and mixes). A number of forum members attempt to explain to him or to even understand what he believes without success. I'll just say there is a reason he is on -17.

If you want to measure minus points on who agrees with you on a platform you’ll be disappointed when you step out into the real world.

[nzjrs]

Mercedes,Renault ect have publicly laid out there plans. They are available online for you to look at.

Just FYI gruntguru (and others) - there are 16 pages of discussion here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29554 where people are discussing this topic and often specifcially trying to discuss with RedNEO the relative tradeoffs of ICE and EV (and mixes). A number of forum members attempt to explain to him or to even understand what he believes without success. I'll just say there is a reason he is on -17.

If you want to measure minus points on who agrees with you on a platform you’ll be disappointed when you step out into the real world.

That's true yeah. I don't really know what your steady state is, I could only observe the rate of change of your reputation points. I was kind of treating the thread as a system-identification problem. We were perturbing you with new information and seeing your response. For small changes of input you seemed to oscillate wildly out of control, certainly I was observing the behaviour of an unstable system.

But you are correct, this is just a model and not the real world.

[Big Tea]

Just FYI gruntguru (and others) - there are 16 pages of discussion here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29554 where people are discussing this topic and often specifcially trying to discuss with RedNEO the relative tradeoffs of ICE and EV (and mixes). A number of forum members attempt to explain to him or to even understand what he believes without success. I'll just say there is a reason he is on -17.

If you want to measure minus points on who agrees with you on a platform you’ll be disappointed when you step out into the real world.

That's true yeah. I don't really know what your steady state is, I could only observe the rate of change of your reputation points. I was kind of treating the thread as a system-identification problem. We were perturbing you with new information and seeing your response. For small changes of input you seemed to oscillate wildly out of control, certainly I was observing the behaviour of an unstable system.

But you are correct, this is just a model and not the real world.

I think there are 'some' on here that are only in it for the negative votes, and I suspect more than one also has an account with a high positive score. (no finger pointing right now, just saying )

[RedNEO]

Just FYI gruntguru (and others) - there are 16 pages of discussion here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29554 where people are discussing this topic and often specifcially trying to discuss with RedNEO the relative tradeoffs of ICE and EV (and mixes). A number of forum members attempt to explain to him or to even understand what he believes without success. I'll just say there is a reason he is on -17.

If you want to measure minus points on who agrees with you on a platform you’ll be disappointed when you step out into the real world.

That's true yeah. I don't really know what your steady state is, I could only observe the rate of change of your reputation points. I was kind of treating the thread as a system-identification problem. We were perturbing you with new information and seeing your response. For small changes of input you seemed to oscillate wildly out of control, certainly I was observing the behaviour of an unstable system.

But you are correct, this is just a model and not the real world.

Stop speaking like these points mean anything. They don’t correlate to a higher understanding or mental state, they can be abused in such a manner like they have been with me. The repeat offenders made sure to tarnish mine into oblivion thinking they gained something from it but like I said they only matter to these people who look at them like Facebook likes.

[RedNEO]

If you want to measure minus points on who agrees with you on a platform you’ll be disappointed when you step out into the real world.

That's true yeah. I don't really know what your steady state is, I could only observe the rate of change of your reputation points. I was kind of treating the thread as a system-identification problem. We were perturbing you with new information and seeing your response. For small changes of input you seemed to oscillate wildly out of control, certainly I was observing the behaviour of an unstable system.

But you are correct, this is just a model and not the real world.

I think there are 'some' on here that are only in it for the negative votes, and I suspect more than one also has an account with a high positive score. (no finger pointing right now, just saying )

Absolutely. This downvote systems flaws have been exposed so many times it still boggles my mind why it’s even here but to give some people some satisfaction that there opinion means more than others like the person above me who uses it as a badge of honour when it’s nothing more than Facebook like approval. Black mirror a popular show has an episode about this very subject.

[nzjrs]

Stop speaking like these points mean anything. They don’t correlate to a higher understanding or mental state, they can be abused in such a manner like they have been with me. The repeat offenders made sure to tarnish mine into oblivion thinking they gained something from it but like I said they only matter to these people who look at them like Facebook likes.

Sorry I was trying to be polite and instead making a little joke about SI and modelling. My mistake. I should have said what I meant - it's not worth time discussing with you. Do not simply trust your votes, but go and read the posts in that thread. In that thread nowhere did you engage with the posters honestly, you could not coherently and consistently articulate your own position, you made basic errors (the 100% battery recycling red herring was one of my favorites), and often you did a worse job of summarizing the links you presented than what was written on the links themselves.

And yes, it was of course just coincidence that the your posts on the thread were rated accordingly.

[Stu]

These types of storage media do not solve the volume problem, they exacerbate it, requiring even greater volume and weight for storage; there is also the problem of the extraction rate of hydrogen from the storage matrix.

And how is hydrogen made? There are three methods, cracking methane, steam reforming methane, and electrolysis - breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen. The first two methods require heat and, obviously, methane; methane cracking is not yet an industrial process. Electrolysis requires electricity, and lots of it. So how are these production methods helpful in reducing carbon footprint or our dependence on fossil fuels?

The theory with the electrolysis process is that in most countries where renewables are used they only generate for the grid when demand exceeds the ‘background’ supply (fossil, nuclear, etc) which cannot be switched off. At these times any energy potential from the renewable source could be used to create hydrogen (effectively using it to store the energy - a battery.....).

If the future is conversion of renewable energy (eg solar or wind) to motive power in a car, the hydrogen cycle has to compete with battery technology which has a round-trip efficiency of 70% - 90% compared to perhaps 50% for the hydrogen cycle.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... efficiency

This is not meant to sound like a typical “Yes,but”, but....
If the available renewable energy is not harnessed, it is wasted and therefore 100% inefficient; so anything that can be gained from it would be a positive.
Until we bin the nuclear & fossil generation totally....

[RedNEO]

Stop speaking like these points mean anything. They don’t correlate to a higher understanding or mental state, they can be abused in such a manner like they have been with me. The repeat offenders made sure to tarnish mine into oblivion thinking they gained something from it but like I said they only matter to these people who look at them like Facebook likes.

Sorry I was trying to be polite and instead making a little joke about SI and modelling. My mistake. I should have said what I meant - it's not worth time discussing with you. Do not simply trust your votes, but go and read the posts in that thread. In that thread nowhere did you engage with the posters honestly, you could not coherently and consistently articulate your own position, you made basic errors (the 100% battery recycling red herring was one of my favorites), and often you did a worse job of summarizing the links you presented than what was written on the links themselves.

And yes, it was of course just coincidence that the your posts on the thread were rated accordingly.

Complete nonsense and you know it. Just look at the reasons for the ratings. You try to make yourself appear like you have a shread of credibility with these reasons but you just come across as what I described earlier.

[gruntguru]

It has everything to do with politics. Not sure what big manufacturers you are referring to because if you look today combustion engines are very much part of there plans.

Would you like to share any those plans with us?

Mercedes,Renault ect have publicly laid out there plans. They are available online for you to look at.

I was asking if you would like to quote the bit where they say they are continuing development of ICE's for "X" number of years.

[gruntguru]

The theory with the electrolysis process is that in most countries where renewables are used they only generate for the grid when demand exceeds the ‘background’ supply (fossil, nuclear, etc) which cannot be switched off. At these times any energy potential from the renewable source could be used to create hydrogen (effectively using it to store the energy - a battery.....).

If the future is conversion of renewable energy (eg solar or wind) to motive power in a car, the hydrogen cycle has to compete with battery technology which has a round-trip efficiency of 70% - 90% compared to perhaps 50% for the hydrogen cycle.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... efficiency

This is not meant to sound like a typical “Yes,but”, but....
If the available renewable energy is not harnessed, it is wasted and therefore 100% inefficient; so anything that can be gained from it would be a positive.
Until we bin the nuclear & fossil generation totally....

Agree totally . . . and the purpose of my post was not to disagree - moreso to expand on the hydrogen cycle topic.

Consider - if creation of hydrogen is to become an "accumulator" for surplus (read unreliable and intermittent) energy, there needs to be a non-critical end-use for that hydrogen. The most flexible use is probably to put the energy back into the grid - but that is inefficient compared to pumped-hydro or batteries. OTOH that all changes if hydrogen becomes a major consumable for transportation, steel making etc.

[Rodak]

The theory with the electrolysis process is that in most countries where renewables are used they only generate for the grid when demand exceeds the ‘background’ supply (fossil, nuclear, etc) which cannot be switched off. At these times any energy potential from the renewable source could be used to create hydrogen (effectively using it to store the energy - a battery.....).

If the future is conversion of renewable energy (eg solar or wind) to motive power in a car, the hydrogen cycle has to compete with battery technology which has a round-trip efficiency of 70% - 90% compared to perhaps 50% for the hydrogen cycle.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... efficiency

This is not meant to sound like a typical “Yes,but”, but....
If the available renewable energy is not harnessed, it is wasted and therefore 100% inefficient; so anything that can be gained from it would be a positive.
Until we bin the nuclear & fossil generation totally....

Yes, true. Please note I made pains to comment about hydrogen as a racing fuel, not a general purpose fuel. Buses, trucks, etc. might well be a good target for hydrogen use. Racing cars, not so much.

[RedNEO]

Would you like to share any those plans with us?

Mercedes,Renault ect have publicly laid out there plans. They are available online for you to look at.

I was asking if you would like to quote the bit where they say they are continuing development of ICE's for "X" number of years.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29554