Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.

Do you support standard output engines?

Yes
13
27%
No
30
63%
Not sure
5
10%
 
Total votes: 48

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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Crossing the line before the other guy does not allways mean you are using the bigger engine and more horses. There have been enough examples in motor racing history where the dinosaurs were beaten by clever new technology. I seem to remember in 1961 a certain Aussie coming to Indianapolis with a ridiculously small and strange race car. And guess what, the guy ran third in the first attempt. Four years later a rear engined Lotus won the race. Not because it had the bigger and stronger engine but because it was lighter, better engineered and more efficient. We tend to forget those basic lessons in engineering.

We need to ask ourselves what we really want. Racing will not hurt if in ten years time the cars have exactly the same power they had in 2008. It was a vintage season and proof that you can have smashing races and an exciting championship with pretty much the same power as in the previous year.

It will make no difference to the racing if the performance advantage of 20s per races comes from 500 more rpm or from a fuel saving technology that allows you to carry 15 kg less fuel through the race. 20s on the next man will win you the race with the same glory and excitement.

If I have a choice between Ferdinand Porsche and Colin Chapman's attitude and Enzo Ferrari's power philosophy I take the engineering genius of the two guys who beat power by intelligence.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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^ WhiteBlue =D>

Gentlemen, a modest proposal vis a vis engines: regulate the fuel consumption and (possibly) the emissions; the rest is free.

CMSMJ1
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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I'll take the bait :mrgreen:

WhiteBlue - I would love to buy you a beer and we could talk F1 so please don't take offence if I seem to get annoyed!
WhiteBlue wrote:I voted against output regulation - We do not need it. It is self levelling up to a point. The manufacturers are primarily engine manufacturers that decided they wanted to be involved in chassis making (and apart from Ferrari, doing it badly)

If we go 20 years back in time to the 3.5L engines we see a constant struggle to gain performance by getting more and more power out of the engine. At the same time we witness regular cut backs in power by going to 3L in 1995, to 2.4L in 1996 2006 and by cutting revs from over 20.000 back to 19.000 in 1997. 2007 Now the talk of the FOTA is about a 1.8L engine for 2011

If we go back 25 years back in time we get fuel regulated Turbo cars that were allowed to carry 220l and produced up to 1200bhp in qually and a decent 800+ if they could manage the fuel for a race. The cars were so much slower than today and they could almost double the power

The whole of the R&D effort to raise power is negated in regular intervalls in order to maintain an acceptable level of track and car safety. Those power cuts are as unavoidable as spring follows winter while the earth rotates around the sun. By now everybody ought to have learned that lesson.

it is not the power that causes issues with on track safety - it is the cornering speeds generated by cars that have to rely on handling rather than power for a laptime. Look at the change in motgp from 990cc to 800 - the bikes are faster but they are vicious buggers and the riders have to go round corners so much faster and as a result are seen to be more dangerous than the relatively tame 990 bikes

What is that vicious circle doing to the cost of competing and the spread of competitiveness over the teams? Every cut back and new start ties up huge capital resources at the manufacturers of drive trains. At the same time it opens a gap between the performance of rich teams and poorer teams. This is because the rich teams can afford to start from scratch and redo every single component of the chassis and optimize it to the new weight distribution and aerodynamics that necessarily come with the power discontinuities.

This difference in budget has come about due to the engine manufacturers being able to come into the sport as a constructor and so being able to use the financial clout of the rest of their business to bankroll the F1 effort. Perhaps we need to encourage a distinction between chassis and engine manufacturers and the flow of money from outside that core business into the f1 teams. Ferrari used to survive on their car sales , just about, and I am sure that the only reason your friends Williams are still in business was due to prudent accounting and the realisation they did not want to spend beyond their means even if it meant they would slide down the grid..which they have.

If this is not bad enough you also have secondary effects during the intervalls of constant engine capacity. Because everybody knows how bad a power cut is they tried to delay it as long as possible. During the longest intervall (1995-2006) the performance and particularly the cornering speed increased at such a steep rate that massive safety requirements were forced on track owners and chassis contructors to avoid a fatalities. Run offs were increased, grand stands removed from the tracks, barriers upgraded and gravel pits turned into huge asphalt areas. The passive safety requirements for front, side and rear impact were jacked up in several steps, HANS was made mandatory, high cockpit walls introduced and wide cockpit templates all in an attempt to cope with ever increasing cornering speeds.

If you look at the cars from 10 years ago you will se that GP2 cars are no as fast...or bloody close. You cannot undo technology. The safety improvements should have been made - HANS was introduced after Dale Earnhardt's death and perhaps better cockpit access etc would have come from other series. Money spent on safety developments is good money - why would you have a problem with that?

While I write this up it looks pretty mad to me that nobody spotted the nonsense in this. There is no sensible strategy in the sport. This is what lemmings do. They continue their behavioral pattern right into the abyss. So why is it so hard to understand that F1 needs a fixed level of power to do much better in the future? The main ingredient of motorsport is the competitive gain of performance in order to win. Sure, you can do that by ever increasing power and energy budget until safety forces a cut. But why not keep the power fixed by regulations and let the performance develop by increasing efficiency?

The sport is not sensible - you could never get it started from scratch as nobody would pay for it and people would laugh in your face.. However, it is here, it has a superb history of innovation, engineering excellence and brave drivers who risk their lives to prove they are the best. Fixing power would take the heart out of the sport. The quest for power and efficiency go hand in hand - you do not get one without the other. If you want to increase fuel economy (I know your native language is not English and so we might have slightly different ideas as to what you mean when you say efficiency - Do you mean fuel efficiency?) then you need to manadate a fuel limit - this has been done before and worked as a power cap. I have no problem with that as long as they could strive to improve power and keep the same efficiency.

It may not have been possible in the past because they did not have the sensors to effectively control the power of an engine. For some years such instrumentation isn't a fundamental problem any more. So by fixing the available power at least the secondary knock on effects of the performance race to chassis designers and track owners could be avoided.

Fixing the power would also have a beneficiary effect for the power train manufacturers. If the total power of the engine plus the regenerated power from KERS and HERS is kept constant, every performance gain must come from efficiency improvements. This is what they desperately need to find for their core business in this day and age.

Because power is fixed there would be a continous downgrading of ICE power and fuel consumption. This would require a constant efficiency development of the combustion engine, the KERS and HERS. Whith long life engines and non manufacturer teams pooling their development contributions to an independant power train supplier the manufacturing teams could be given much more design freedom to innovate. There would be constant change without big readjusting steps that shake up the competition landscape.

In my view such a system could be much simpler in terms of regulations and control. The benefits to all stake holders of GP racing could be massive. And this brings me back to my question from the top. Why are the knowedgeable people of this board not seeing the opportunities of such a strategy? I still do not understand it!
Your post is a good one - but you are getting hung up on the power cap - it is a bad idea and flies in the face of f1.
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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Latest news seem to suggest that Cosworth was only used by Mosley, are they shafted by F1 again?
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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I have said it often enough. The standard engine tender is the leverage Mosley used to get the manufacturers to supply engines at acceptable prices to the customers. Apparently he achieved his goal. A shame for Cosworth if their effort comes to nothing.

You seem to agree that fuel efficiency would be a worthy goal, but fixing power would be an elegant method to achieve that.

F1 is still in the predicament to find a way to equalize engine performance as mandated by the October WMSC meeting. They will probably drop the rpm limit from 19.000 to 18.000. That will help the engines to run more races and ease the cost burden. But it will not adress the complaints by Renault that the top teams violated the intention of the engine freeze.

I do not care very much if they regulate max fuel flow and introduce total fuel caps or go to limit engine power by torque and rpm product. The effect will be quite the same.

So in the essential approach we would achieve the same thing. stopping the power game and focussing F1 on fuel efficiency.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

CMSMJ1
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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Thanks WB

I don't agree that fuel efficiency should be a goal for the f1 designers in itself. I think that if they had a power cap then what is the point of the efficiency drive?

There are no points for not using fuel. You might as well use as much fuel as you can to go as fast as you can.

Endurance racing could be a viable efficiency formula and it would make sense to look into it but F1 needs to be unfettered by it's nature.

ref my circumstantial comments - yes - this is my opinion, not anyone elses.. I am not into the "ipse dixit" way of posting. I offer my opinion only.

They should not mandate a rev limit - they should say to the engine manufacturers - go on, 5 races per engine, all practice and qualli... Any failures in a customer chassis then the engine is free of charge! That would encourage slower revving in itself...
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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I think free Practice engines should stay, though - teams already use their old, used engines for those (Renault admitted this was the cause for several failures in Practice this season), and including those under the engine-life rules would only prevent the already-sparse testing on Fridays...

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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The objective of the race is to finish first. It is not to have more power or to use more fuel. You agreed to a fuel cap. If the fuel is capped at an amount significantly lower than what the most thirsty engine uses (as it was with the turbos) it has the same effect as a power limit. Then the more efficient engine and chassis that converts the given energy into higher average speed will finish first (given comparable reliability).

If you limit engine output power the same will happen. The more energy efficient chassis/engine will carry less fuel which means less weight and will finish first. It is simply an application of the the same theory.

In order to avoid continuing power cuts and their disruptive effects either power or fuel must be limited.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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WhiteBlue wrote:
In order to avoid continuing power cuts and their disruptive effects either power or fuel must be limited.
We can go in circles..but i would say we should limit fuel which will directly encourage more efficient engines as there is a competion aspect to making the mot efficient, powerful engine.

Making just the most efficient is not as marketable IMO if the end result, GP win, stays the same.
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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In that case, I'd rather have it straight up: x litres of fuel per race. Encourages efficiency far better than the truly minuscule (they'll save what? A kilo or two per race at first) gains of a power-capped system.

Honda worked very hard with McLaren to last the races in 1988 under the fuel-restrictions: The same can be mandated now. Thirsty engine? They'll have to turn down the revs, or use KERS more heavily.

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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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Regarding KERS as a source of energy, an F1 Car spends some 600 - 700 kWh during a race, while KERS in its 2009 guise accumulates about 1 % of that energy over 60 - 70 laps.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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Well, but the 2009 castrated KERS is a joke anyway. It's raison d'etre is for the top teams to make sure they will not fall down if they screw things up (as Ferrari looks set to).
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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flynfrog
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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WhiteBlue wrote:Well, but the 2009 castrated KERS is a joke anyway. It's raison d'etre is for the top teams to make sure they will not fall down if they screw things up (as Ferrari looks set to).
its a joke anyway allow KERS and Open up the engine regs to 2006 rules. The weight of running kers will not out weigh benefits

The green racing argument doesn't hold up either disposal of lithium batteries vs a few extra liters of fuel

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flynfrog
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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flynfrog wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:Well, but the 2009 castrated KERS is a joke anyway. It's raison d'etre is for the top teams to make sure they will not fall down if they screw things up (as Ferrari looks set to).
its a joke anyway allow KERS and Open up the engine regs to 2006 rules. The weight of running kers will not out weigh benefits

The green racing argument doesn't hold up either disposal of lithium batteries vs a few extra liters of fuel
and by kers I mean any kers you want

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Cosworth, Xtrac and Ricardo win engine tender

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KERS do not necessarily have lithium batteries. Williams use flywheel with motor/generator integrated in the wheel.

Every great invention took time to get on its feet. Look at the first motor cars. They were ridiculous but hey changed the world.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)