Is KERS going to be around next year?

[xpensive]

I am not very good with compressible fluids, why I have difficulties figuring what volume/pressures you would need to store the kinetic energy from one corner only, say 100 kJ. But power is still pressure times flow, why it should be possible to make an estimation somehow?

Screw-compressors can be made most compact however, but I don't know if the can be made to work in reverse, as motors?

[WhiteBlue]

Screw-compressors can be made most compact however, but I don't know if the can be made to work in reverse, as motors?

Usually they are designed only for one purpose either as compressor or as engine, but I'm sure fundamentally you can use them both ways.

Size, weight and energy density are issues there. For ease of calculation hydraulics are a good step to use. It was done with the hydristor.

When I talk energy density you have to be aware that typical delta p for screw compressors is several bar. If you go to high pressure apps like 100 bar you practically find only piston compressors.

[xpensive]

Hydraulics I know very well, but that means incompressible fluids, why I don't think it's really applicable here.
High-pressure compressed air also have safety issues, why perhaps water-hydraulics has been investigated?

[Richard]

I wonder how many electric cars we'll see at sports car events?

Here's a local car that'll be on parade at LeMans - http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=23444

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=372963

The facts:

• KERS spec will not change for better power, storage or away from the push to pass button
• Ferrari announce they will use KERS which makes it a reality in 2011
• minimum weight will go up once again from 620 kg to 640 kg
• KERS will neither be mandatory nor standardized

I call that a missed opportunity. From a cost point of view the decision is understandable but the oppportunity to develop KERS is wasted. Also they could have started to introduce fuel load caps which they did not. Poor decision.

[Richard]

I call that a missed opportunity. From a cost point of view the decision is understandable but the oppportunity to develop KERS is wasted.

From a cost point of view mandated KERS is cheaper because cost can be shared between many teams.

Note I said "mandated" not "standardised". This would use possibly 4 suppliers to the whole grid - McLaren, Ferrari, Williams, Cosworth.

[WhiteBlue]

Williams have excluded themselves from competing with their system in F1 as long as the refueling ban continues. The system is too bulky. There are several quotes by Frank Williams to that effect.

[autogyro]

Williams have excluded themselves from competing with their system in F1 as long as the refueling ban continues. The system is too bulky. There are several quotes by Frank Williams to that effect.

Ring him up and tell him I have got the answer.

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84543?

Additional information on how the voting went. Merc voted against doubling the energy. Ferrari and Renault wanted to go from 400 kJ to 800 kJ.

They have increased the minimum weight of the car to accommodate a system that will make the life of a driver much harder. Now we have a push to pass KERS system and a push to pass proximity wing system. That makes no sense in my view.

KERS needs to be a proper dual torque system from the ground up without energy or power limitation and with a common ECU controlled way to feed/extract the electric power in a way that ABS, ESP and launch control are avoided.

It is clear that this will be needed as soon as the new power train formula arrives supposedly in 2013. Getting to that point with a reasonable cost burden and with as low vehicle weight as possible is the challenge. I'm not sure the teams have taken a good approach here. Just about the only positive point is the cost cap agreement. I hope they will not make a mess of it.

[andrew]

The main problem I can see with KERS is with the engines being so closely matched, it will not make any real difference. Ok maybe at the start it will, but once the drivers learn from watching each other the best places on each track to use their KERS is, they will all be using it in the same places. Then it will be back to the drawing board.....

[xpensive]

KERS is just a very xpensive symbolic gesture andrew, when an F1 car is spending 3-4 liters of gas per lap, or 100 000 - 140 000 kJ,
400 or 800 kJ of KERS doesn't really matter energy-wise. The FIA should let it loose or not at all.

[WhiteBlue]

The teams make the rules. If this issue was up to the governing body we would have full KERS for many years.

[timbo]

The most interesting bit from there is movable rear aero.

[xpensive]

The teams make the rules.
...

It's the FIA F1 championship, why obviously the FIA makes the rules, there are many xamples of the FIA going against the teams wishes.

[WhiteBlue]

The teams make the rules.
...

It's the FIA F1 championship, why obviously the FIA makes the rules, there are many xamples of the FIA going against the teams wishes.

The FiA does not even have the right to initiate a rule change according to the concord agreement unless it is safety driven. The F1 commission is the initiator of all "standard" rule changes. The teams totally dominate the F1 commission and the FiA WMSC only rubber stamps their decisions. All they can do is deny ratification and send the thing back for further debate. In the Concord interregnum from 1.1.2008-31.07.2009 the FiA grabbed the rule making iniative in several cases and made unilateral changes against the wish of the teams and the F1 commission wasn't even convened for some years. But even in that time the teams had undoubted regulatory power. They decided a moratorium on KERS which was 100% against FiA policy and they achieved the air superiority over the rules by this demonstration. In the following struggle about the rules in the early half of 2009 the FiA and the teams came to a compromise in order not to split F1. The FiA got the admission of the new teams, an independent engine manufacturer and the RRA. The teams got the rules they wanted and the guarantee that the old modus of the F1 commission writing the rules would return. It means they effectively have the rules power.