Strange going-ons at Red Bull

[WhiteBlue]

And here we have the next round of surprises from Christian Horner.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/2010060 ... z0pjg6JiK2

Obviously it’s very frustrating for the team to see both drivers go out of the race at that point. It’s the one thing that we’ve always made clear is give each other enough room, if one is alongside, concede and fight back at the next corner. On so many occasions they’ve done that very well. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, that didn’t happen on Sunday.

This says the rule of engagement at Red Bull is different to what you generally find in motor racing. According to this internal Red Bull rule Webber should have yielded the position when Vettel was alongside and should have let him through to the racing line. This is another explanation why Vettel was so pissed off after the crash. I cannot believe that Vettel was making that move on Webber without some special circumstances. It was just too dumb to do and then to make all these rude gestures when he came back from the stricken car. Unless Horner is making this up as he goes the Red Bull drivers must have previously agreed to this ROE. And in this case Vettel is in his right to be upset by Webber braking the rule and fighting him.

[Tim.Wright]

I think at this stage Horner and the redbull management are in damage limitation mode. Anything that strict or relevant to the situation would have come out days ago if it was true.

Even so, if Mark had stayed exactly where he was, he would have conceded the next corner to Vettel since he was on the inside and a metre ahead. So he was even playing by those rules. Vettel had absolutely no excuse to change lines as he did.

I heard of people turning in on someone but I have NEVER seen somone turn out on someone to cause such an accident.

This is so clear to me, I really can't understand how anyone can see this any other way.

Tim

[nipo]

I heard of people turning in on someone but I have NEVER seen somone turn out on someone to cause such an accident.

This is so clear to me, I really can't understand how anyone can see this any other way.

Agreed, but I'll try to add something to that.

I think Vettel moving to the right and causing the accident is very clear. The claim that Mark should have moved aside is invalid because Mark gave enough room for Vettel to brake and take the inside line through the corner. Mark didn't move in, Vettel moved out. No Rules of Engagement whatsoever was broken by Webber here - he DID leave enough room.

The telling thing was Vettel's immediate reaction after getting out of his car. He thinks Webber was insane to not have moved aside once the pass was "complete". He had the expectation that Mark should have immediately forfeited the preferred line. Now, if you look at the footage of the pass:

1. Vettel was quite a bit quicker coming onto the straight;
2. Webber did not defend the passing move at all;
3. Vettel didn't bother to look whether Webber has moved out of his way / line.

Where else do you see this, huh? Cars lapping backmarkers! Of course I would be furious if a backmarker didn't move completely out of the way - I would think he's insane and I'll probably have shown some of the gestures Vettel showed getting out of his car.

The reality is that for Vettel, and evidently for the RB team, it wasn't meant to be fair fighting based on some RoE. It was meant to be a swap in race positions, i.e. team order. I think that's pretty clear. WB has the impression the communication side went ugly and Mark didn't get the message - I'm not so sure and I think we'll never know if it was Mark not wanting to play ball or it's just pure bad luck at that point. In any case the team was the culprit and has to take the blame. I hope Horner is gentleman (and smart) enough to admit the fault and salvage the relationship between his two drivers.

[antsyd]

Vettel's attempted pass was for the lead of the WDC on the WDC leader.

Although it is a different situation to Jerez 1997, I do see some similarities.

WDC contenders should be aware that any attempted pass on a WDC leader is going to be more difficult than a regulation pass as there is more at stake.

I would love to see Vettel try a pass on someone like Michael Schumacher if he was in WDC lead.

[djos]

Who finished 2nd in last years championship? And where was Webber last year?

Red Bull are astute enough to give their drivers the correct positions whichin the team.

Webber was clearly recovering from a broken leg and shoulder and couldn't even walk normally last year as a result - this year is the first time Vettel has had to fight a fully fit Webber!!!

History shows that Webber has always dominated his team mates in qually and usually in points over the whole season so why are ppl so surprised now when he starts getting great results?????

[djos]

@ myurr and segedunum. I don't agree with your view here. Let me just say that all your points don't convince me. A driver stuck behind his team mate for 40 laps cannot show any superior speed he may have due to setup or driving style. Only when he gets into clean air will he be able to prove his point. This is why all research on lap times is moot. So let' stop the discussion on the point if Vettel would have been faster. We cannot know. All we know is that the RB management probably thought so or pretended to see it that way because it comes up in all the early statements.

And there's the rub, Vettel was only behind Webber during the last stint due to pit-stop strategy - he'd breifly grabbed P2 from Hamilton and cocked it up in the first lap of the race and it was Hamilton who was tailing Webber for the frist 20 laps.

I think it's down right disgusting of Marko (clearly he is pulling the strings here) to try and rob a driver of the race win via thinly veiled team orders when that driver (Mark) has not put a foot wrong and lead the entire race in a convincing manner! [-X

[djos]

Certainly the team are to blame, they apparently created a situation where Vettel was expecting Webber to roll out the red carpet for him.

The accident is Vettel's fault though since he inexplicably swerved to the right and contacted Webber's car. I think it was telling when the BBC was talking to Whitmarsh after the race when he said something to the effect of "if it were my driver who did that I don't think I would be shaking his hand afterwords."

Red Bull tried to cater to Vettel and Webber wanted nothing of it. He didn't do anything inappropriate; he just held his line on the track. If Vettel was smart he would have braked early, or even better went to the outside and try to gain position for the next turn. He was desperate and he screwed up big time.

Well Put!!

*****

[Mysticf1]

Also no-one seems to remember Webber defended against Hamilton during the first stint very well no matter how much pressure was mounted on him when all the engines where "turned up".

[myurr]

Unless Horner is making this up as he goes the Red Bull drivers must have previously agreed to this ROE. And in this case Vettel is in his right to be upset by Webber braking the rule and fighting him.

If this has always been the case and Horner isn't just making it up as he goes along then why has it taken four days to come out!? Surely when they were looking for any excuse to blame Mark early on then the 'fact' that they had clear rules of engagement that Mark was in breach of would be at the top of their list! The rest of the interview has other fabrications and half truths that undermine pretty much everything he says.

The most stupid thing is that this internal team battle is still being conducted by the management in the media! Consider the positions of the protagonists:

Webber - has made a public statement saying the team must pull together, put their differences behind them, and work towards championship success.

Vettel - blames Webber 100% after the event and then silence ever since.

Red Bull - still publicly briefing against one of their drivers coming out with new excuses on a daily basis as to why Webber was to blame.

I am astounded by this constant drip feeding of blame from Red Bull trying to justify their position. Their strategy seems to have been: blame Mark; row back from this to a 50/50 allocation of blame once they realise public opinion is so heavily stacked against them; drip feed further 'info' as to why their original stance was correct.

I can only guess at why they are doing this, and my number one theory is that they do see Vettel as the next Schumacher - not in talent (they do think he is as talented, but that's not the motivation here) but in marketability. They have seen what Schumacher the brand did for Ferrari and then for Mercedes, and they want some of that. Mark is an older driver with less marketability than the golden haired wonder kid, so for Red Bulls management his image is far less important than Vettels.

That is why they want Vettel to win the championship. Which is why they tried to engineer the race in his favour. And that is why they are seeking to save his image by trying to sacrifice Webbers.

However, much like the current points situation, in my view their actions have backfired and are causing the opposite effect. Vettels image is being tarnished, Webbers enhanced. I for one, who up to this season always preferred Vettel to Webber, hope that Mark wipes the floor with the boy wonder, wiping that smug grin from his face, and then quits the team to go and race for someone who appreciates him (all as long as Hamilton beats them both!!).

[djos]

I think at this stage Horner and the redbull management are in damage limitation mode. Anything that strict or relevant to the situation would have come out days ago if it was true.

Even so, if Mark had stayed exactly where he was, he would have conceded the next corner to Vettel since he was on the inside and a metre ahead. So he was even playing by those rules. Vettel had absolutely no excuse to change lines as he did.

I dont believe that's true, Webber had the racing line and had deliberately kept Vettel on the dirty line which would have compromised his braking distances giving Webber the advantage into and out of the corner.

[Tim.Wright]

I dont know why people say that, noone had a clean track advantage. They were both on the dirty line. The racing line was on the right hand side of the track.
Tim

[univex]

I dont know why people say that, noone had a clean track advantage. They were both on the dirty line. The racing line was on the right hand side of the track.
Tim

Mark had no one to the right of him where the braking line was, all he had to do was swing out to the braking line at the last nano second, brake, and turn into the corner.

[myurr]

Unless Horner is making this up as he goes the Red Bull drivers must have previously agreed to this ROE. And in this case Vettel is in his right to be upset by Webber braking the rule and fighting him.

If this has always been the case and Horner isn't just making it up as he goes along then why has it taken four days to come out!? Surely when they were looking for any excuse to blame Mark early on then the 'fact' that they had clear rules of engagement that Mark was in breach of would be at the top of their list! The rest of the interview has other fabrications and half truths that undermine pretty much everything he says.

The most stupid thing is that this internal team battle is still being conducted by the management in the media! Consider the positions of the protagonists:

Webber - has made a public statement saying the team must pull together, put their differences behind them, and work towards championship success.

Vettel - blames Webber 100% after the event and then silence ever since.

Red Bull - still publicly briefing against one of their drivers coming out with new excuses on a daily basis as to why Webber was to blame.

I am astounded by this constant drip feeding of blame from Red Bull trying to justify their position. Their strategy seems to have been: blame Mark; row back from this to a 50/50 allocation of blame once they realise public opinion is so heavily stacked against them; drip feed further 'info' as to why their original stance was correct.

I can only guess at why they are doing this, and my number one theory is that they do see Vettel as the next Schumacher - not in talent (they do think he is as talented, but that's not the motivation here) but in marketability. They have seen what Schumacher the brand did for Ferrari and then for Mercedes, and they want some of that. Mark is an older driver with less marketability than the golden haired wonder kid, so for Red Bulls management his image is far less important than Vettels.

That is why they want Vettel to win the championship. Which is why they tried to engineer the race in his favour. And that is why they are seeking to save his image by trying to sacrifice Webbers.

However, much like the current points situation, in my view their actions have backfired and are causing the opposite effect. Vettels image is being tarnished, Webbers enhanced. I for one, who up to this season always preferred Vettel to Webber, hope that Mark wipes the floor with the boy wonder, wiping that smug grin from his face, and then quits the team to go and race for someone who appreciates him (all as long as Hamilton beats them both!!).

Further to my previous post, you do have to wonder what today's latest inside info from Red Bull is going to be. There is bound to be another 'revelation' between now and the weekend.

How long will it be before Horner or Marko produce telemetry showing beyond doubt that Webber actually swerved violently left deliberately hitting Vettel and that it was all Mark's fault.

[Richard]

Further to my previous post, you do have to wonder what today's latest inside info from Red Bull is going to be. There is bound to be another 'revelation' between now and the weekend.

How long will it be before Horner or Marko produce telemetry showing beyond doubt that Webber actually swerved violently left deliberately hitting Vettel and that it was all Mark's fault.

Along with a radio recording that says "Mark, please slow to a crawl and let Vettel pass".

Followed by getting the rule book thrown at them by the FIA

Followed by an "corrected" radio recording that says "Mark, please race as hard as possible".

[djos]

Another great article from Joe Saward:

The important questions that have not been answered…