2013 Malaysian GP - Sepang

[Cocles]

How can you possibly be serious...completely ignored team orders, admitted to it and yet somehow Vettels disobeying is somehow worse. The only difference is that MW didn't have what it takes to get past SV in that race. He absolutely gave it a bash though and his intent was completely there. What MW has proved here is that although what SB did was ultimately wrong in so far as disobeying TO is that he is a huge hypocrite and so are all those who are bashing Seb for doing exactly what Mark tried to do but failed.

We have to accept that MW is viewed as an underdog, so is given a lot of slack, whereas SV, as a 3 time world champion, is held up to an unreasonably high standard. It's a bad situation that causes a lot of fights among the fans, who should be more sporting with each other.

[i70q7m7ghw]

So it is an engine setting or code?

It's quite clearly a multi-map setting, which will include fuel mix, engine mappings, KERS harvest/discharge etc.

This setting will be used to "bring the cars home" when the positions are secured. It is most probable that before every race they discuss the strategy after the final stop, which could be "switch to multi 21 and bring the cars home". That is, maintain a gap to your team mate, save your tyres. Interpret that as a direct team order not to overtake if you want, but that's not what it is.

What Vettel did not do was switch to "Multi 21" when told. What Vettel did not do is stick to a lap delta when told. What Vettel did not do is look after his tyres when told.

Webber was probably saying "Multi 21" because he had changed to that setting which puts him at a disadvantage to any cars behind. However, he had been told his team mate would also be doing the same so there would be no problem. Of course that didn't happen. Webber, now handicapped by the "Multi 21" setting is caught and passed by his team mate who ignored the instruction.

Do you not think Webber has more right to be angry about this, than a direct team order not to pass? He was pissed off about the fact Vettel didn't change his engine map and used the performance difference to catch and overtake.

[Cam]

So, assuming that right hand switch goes to 9 and the left hand switch has 2 settings, which work in tandem with the right hand switch, there is possibly 29+ engine map settings for each race? Is this the what you're suggesting?

[iotar__]

I just read this analysis from BBC F1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21918537

Gary pointed out some obvious difference between RedBull and Mercedes. Brawn was authoritative giving a direct order where as RedBull was giving a statement "Seb, this is getting silly". For example, that can be interpreted as, yes I am being silly, but I have a good reason to be so.

I think this discussion has been blown out of proportion with examples like Multi-21 speculated to be a team order of #2 driver allowed to stay ahead of #1 when it is realistically just a code for fuel saving mode on the wheel. Unless RB clearly explains what multi21 is, we will never know for sure and thus should never be used as a fact in this debate.

The way I see it, Vettel was hungry and clever enough to collect as many points as possible when his nearest opponents were having a bad day. To achieve that he had to overtake Webber, ignore a few statements from his team and put up with angry face Webber. Think about it, when was the last time Webber actually helped his teammate?

Careful, Anderson doesn't seem to be popular around here, although he was kind of right about RB and McLaren in testing.

It's a good point (about how they reacted) but the conclusion is different. First of all their reaction when Vettel tried to overtake Webber AGAINST ALL THEIR ORDERS as they claim now, was "be careful". Not: "what are you doing?" not "stop it immediately", not "keep 3 s gap" No, just do what you're doing but be careful. So let's call a spade spade, all their reaction how they feel indignant after the race, how it was wrong, both from the team and the driver are absolutely worthless lies.

They don't mind, they're not going to "talk" to Vettel, it's a facade for public opinion in the name of marketing. Of course they'd rather not have those kind of tensions in the team but let's not kid ourselves, they did not do anything about when it mattered. They could have told Vettel to stop attacking Webber, they could have told him to give back position, nothing. But after the race, oh that's terrible and wrong Bull. Sh..t.

Going back to Silverstone 2011 comparison adding to the the differences pointed out earlier, if it's not obvious enough:

1. Overtake did not happen (Webber obeyed team orders) this is kind of important
2. It wasn't in the second race of the season
3. It was in the situation when the championship was virtually decided
4. It wasn't for a win, and one two-win for the team

[Lurk]

I disagree. I don't think Seb is that stupid - though that is admittedly a judgment call. After all, Peter Sauber has always said that Vettel was one of, if not the, smartest driver he's ever worked with.

Smartest driver don't mean he has good communication skills. There is a lot of smart people in there field that are unable to communicate, or even look at the big picture.


And for the radio communication, the discussion is running around in circles. As several people say: we don't have the whole thing. So can we just agree that it is pointless to say "how could he misunderstand 'don't be silly' and 'there'll be some explaining to do'", or "they never gave him a clear order"?

On the other hand, Marko and Horner were pretty clear on TV that the order was given and even Vettel said that this is the kind of situation that is always discussed before a race so he should have known what to do.
We can also talk about Vettel changing several time his version of the events because in this case, we have the whole words: "I wasn't aware", "I did get the message but misunderstood", "When I took off my helmet and saw that Mark didn't look too happy I talked to him and he came straight to the point" but on the podium "For sure we both enjoyed that" (seriously?), "Obviously then took quite a lot of risk to pass him", "everything but the pass was deliberate"...

Going back to Silverstone 2011 comparison adding to the the differences pointed out earlier, if it's not obvious enough:

1. Overtake did not happen (Webber obeyed team orders) this is kind of important
2. It wasn't in the second race of the season
3. It was in the situation when the championship was virtually decided
4. It wasn't for a win, and one two-win for the team

1. but he wanted too, we can ignore that either.
4. non relevant: as Webber said, if Alonso had a failure, it would be for the win.

I agree with 2. and 3. and I would add a 5. and 6.
5. Webber said immediatly and clearly he didn't obey
6. Vettel was fully aware, it was not a treacherous move from Mark.

[henra]

I can think of two good reasons why they'd do that. 1) He's defied a team order and they need to reestablish authority. 2) The team know they may need to call upon Mark later in the year to support Vettel and are trying to rebuild that bridge.

I agree and tend to think it might be #2.
That would explain why they (including his own manager) criticise one of their drivers (especially if it's the '#1 driver') so openly.
To appease the other one.
Otherwise such matters are discussed behind closed doors and you don't take position in front of a camera.

That said I also have some serious difficulties remembering a single case where MW helped SV or even fought him less than any other driver in the field for that matter.
I see more problems wrt to the general Team Spirit after this event, though the little break before the next race might help.

I also have the feeling this thing is blown a little out of proportion.
If Multi 21 is a direct Team Order or an implicit one doesn't make much of a difference to me.
It is pretty clear (and surely was to SV as well) they didn't want him to challenge MW, yet he probably got carried away and did. He should have 'fessed up' instead of labouring around the issue, though.
Happens with F1 drivers. Will happen again somewhen, somewhere.

Requests such as reducing the fuel for SV for the rest of the season are childish. This is F1 and not 'Kindergarten' - Merry go Round...

[Kansas]

So this car again did 1 less stop then the top teams, even if it didnt rly pay off this weekend, but 21 and 22 laps on the hard for Grosjean and Kimi, compared to Vettel and Webber doing 10 and 12 on the hards.

Wonder what kind of pace they could have had if they had been higher up at the start and not had the traffic they ended up in.

Grosjean troubled with car more then Kimi again. He had free track in front of him most of time, but couldn't get from DRS zone of drivers behind him, this compromised Kimi also, because he was last in 4 car train, and both cars in front of him could use DRS because of Grosjean. But Kimi pace was there, when he had free track he had fastest laps in race. Too bad and unlucky weekend.

I thought these threads were for spot the difference games and such (if it belongs somewhere please else move it), not for hyping your favourite drivers with little regard to facts but if you insist:

1. Really was Grosjean "more troubled"? Yes and no. No, because I don't recall him going off track twice, first time losing position to his team-mate. I also remember him taking care of Ricciardo and particularly Perez and Hulkenberg quickly or in a spectacular fashion. Unlike his team-mate who was stuck behind them and couldn't do anything through no one's fault but his. DRS comment makes no sense, the one about free track for RG either or only to small extent (Massa and all drivers mentioned, Vettel train before pitstop + Raikkonen)

Yes, because was losing in the second sector alone some 0,3-0,5 (estimation from memory) not only to KR but to other cars too (less). I doubt it was a set up difference, rather than proof of being behind (ahem) when it comes to set up fine-tuning and familiarity with updated (second ahem), not to mention general direction when it comes to car (car, so it does belong here) development, starting position and reasons for it and so on.

2. About KR free air comment: if you're saying that every time Raikkonen had a car around him he was in trouble then I agree. Again - no bad luck involved. You can't have Australia every race, when they made his team mate disappear (no reference point), and Lotus had one pitstop advantage and no one in sight to race.

made his teammate disappear??? LMAO. Romain simply suffer, thats all. Last year, kimi wasted many FPs to test the DRD device which never come to fruition. Romain receive new updates from valencia to hockkenheim period while he had to wait until Hungary. Ended up scoring more podiums and more points than Romain. And we all know Romain spent more time in the factory more than Kimi did, the direction of car development is most likely on the hand of Romain when Kimi simply doesnt care.

The 6 sec pit stop ruined Kimi 's chance to undercut romain, hulk and perez. Yea, not bad luck, team 's fault. Not to mention his FW was clipped on the start. Also the team 's decision to pit kimi on used medium rather than fresh hard, romain had 2 fresh set of medium, which did not pose any disadvantage on pace.

Anyway, its weird the car was so good on friday but getting worst after that. Kimi said the team found some bugs on saturday night, hopefully they can sort it out by shanghai then.

I fear it was due to the "passive ride" run by the team that wasnt functioning properly or the new exhaust was proven faulty and ineffective.

[i70q7m7ghw]

So, assuming that right hand switch goes to 9 and the left hand switch has 2 settings, which work in tandem with the right hand switch, there is possibly 29+ engine map settings for each race? Is this the what you're suggesting?

No, they are multi-map settings, they can be programmed with various things, not exclusively engine maps.

[jz11]

how can anyone call this racing, so the 3time world champion, ignoring team orders, driving on race settings caught up and overtook his team mate, who, following the same team order, switched over to conservation mode, are you calling that racing? it's a spit into your teammates face, that's what it is, he passed him on the outside, MW is not that horribad of a driver to just let someone do it... the door would have been shut to any driver except his teammate, because you can imagine what would happen if he would have pushed his teammate 3time world champion out, this is the smart SV, he knows he will not do much to defend and just went for it, few awkward moments after the race and then everyone will "forget"

all in all, this "incident" and the other stuff that happened during these past 3 years makes me dislike SV as a person very much, he is nothing more that a (insert a c-word here), who puts up the mask of a nice person for the masses, but during races you see who he really is, a spoiled baby who got carried by team to 3 world championships so far

rant over

p.s. IF Seb would have been so smart as people make him out to be, he would have stayed behind, saved his engine, and in the meantime got leverage to gain his teammates indirect support for later part of the season, this is why RB management were so unhappy about his actions, now they have nothing to justify poor strategy calls for MW, who miraculously turn to SV advantages during previous races, who some blind people, posting on this forum, didn't notice, and keep saying stuff like - when did MW ever help SV during these last 3 years...

[Dragonfly]

jz11
did you actually watch the race or simply found a handy backing explanation to support your hatred?
When Vettel was exiting the pits Webber was all but in safe mode charging to the brim along the straight. And if it was an easy pass for Vettel would you please remind me how many laps it took to make it?

[jamsbong]

I would have thought that MW would have crank up the setting to defend SV. Anyone with the right mind would do that, I think. Clearly there was some nice hard racing and we all enjoyed it.

As far as I can see, the team order had two purpose:
1. To ensure they won't crash into each other like Turkey 2010
2. To ensure they won't use up the tires and end up being sitting ducks for the Mercs.

None of the above happened and they scored the maximum points possible. I know SV took matters into his own hands and I praise him for doing so. He's got balls!
Engineers gave him plenty of advise, but in the end, you make your own judgement to take risk or to take advise. As far as I can see, it paid off. MW is never the type that give teammate favors anyway, so it is business as usual in RB.

[Vasconia]

Only good luck helped because I was expeting to see another Turkey 2010.

Yo know, I love the battle between Mark and Seb, it was like in the old days and I would like to see more like this one. But in other races when Mark was faster RB denied him the chance of fighting with Seb and he DID what the team said. For the gods sake Seb must do the same!, team orders, if they have to be applicated, they have to be coherent and equal.

I do not like team orders but if in one race you use them with one driver, in the next race you have to do the same, not only when Vettel is first but also when Mark is first, and both drivers have to respect them and speak before the race, it seems that they did it but Vettel showed a total lack o respect.

The same I can see with Mercedes, but in this case NIco was much more respectful, it was a pity because his pace was very good and it would have great to see him attacking Mark and Seb.

[Hail22]

Former Minardi Boss Paul Stoddart on Yesterday's race:

http://media.theage.com.au/selections/i ... 38013.html

[Steven]

As a team, the behavior you'd want from a driver is that from Mark Webber. Once you know a driver is capable of ignoring orders, what are you going to do with him? Let them drive like an unguided projectile and hope in the end he turned down the engine in time to not end up without fuel 500m before the finish line?

I think for RBR it's an important precedent which they need to handle carefully. If they fail to do so, this will unravel into a situation as we had at McLaren between Alonso and Hamilton, where the team itself was also entirely split up and backing either one of the drivers. This is another fierce test of Christian Horner, but I'm not sure that even with the best personal management capabilities, trust and respect can be restored.

[Dragonfly]

As a team, the behavior you'd want from a driver is that from Mark Webber.

I presume you mean his behavior yesterday only. And even if only yesterday we can't be sure there's not something behind the scene.
Because as a whole and as a teammate to Vettel MW is not only a good example but the contrary. Since day one can't accept being beaten by an youngster and tries to "teach him to behave". Turkey 2010 being one of the examples. Even in situations when MW has no chance for a title whatsoever he's trying not to help to the point of indirectly helping the rival from another team. Brazil 2012 being the last example. And I am sure had Hamilton been closer yesterday MW would drop back and let him chase Vettel. Seb has nothing to lose with respect to eventual help from MW, he's never got it those years.