2014 Design

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2014 Design

Post

I don't think they'll do it deliberately; vortices generate quite some drag on the car, so you don't want to put them on without getting extra performance out of them.

If anything when they disrupt air on the car behind, it's a lucky coincidence. But teams will only use vortices if it brings performance to their own car.
#AeroFrodo

trinidefender
trinidefender
317
Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: 2014 Design

Post

Manoah2u wrote:just a question that popped into my mind.....could constructors perhaps delibaretly create vortices or 'aerodynamics' at the rear of the car that cause turbulent air with the intention of messing up the air behind so it will cause a negative effect to the cars behind? Obviously there is the risk of actually ruining your own aero if not done properly, but is it actually possible and is it legal?

for example; let's say Ferrari has a car that is aerodynamically sound, and they put some effects at the very rear of their
rear wing endplates, which will not harm them but will induce a significant amount of turbulent air behind them, messing
up the aero for the car directly behind them.

is that possible, are there rules that prevent this and if not, does this already happen?
As they said, there is no way to put extra things on that create turbulence without hurting your own cars performance. To answer your other question, once designers stay within the rule book when it comes to car design then they can do what they want. There has been some rules introduced throughout the years to reduce turbulence. If I remember correctly, the neutral center section of the front wing was added to try to smoothen out airflow around the car. Also the banning of all the extra wings and body protrusions. Part of it was to slow the cars down but I also suspect to reduce turbulent air for following cars. I'm also of the opinion that at least part of the reason for removing the beamwing was to have more clean airflow for any car following close behind.

shamyakovic
shamyakovic
-2
Joined: 26 Dec 2013, 22:40

Re: 2014 Design

Post

we cannot completely dismiss out that argument
back in 2004 some toyota engineer was explaining how there are some parts on the ferrari which has no use other than to create turbulance for the following car
i cant find any source, but i vaguely remember it, cant be sure about it

anyways long time reader first post

User avatar
djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2014 Design

Post

I'm pretty sure I've heard of deliberately causing dirty air behind F1 cars since the 90's.
"In downforce we trust"

wesley123
wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: 2014 Design

Post

I have never heard anything about it. And other than when you have performance to spare, I see no reason why you'd want to
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Lycoming
Lycoming
106
Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 22:58

Re: 2014 Design

Post

The bigger the wake vortices, the more induced drag you have. If you want more intense vorticies, you will need to increase induced drag on your vehicle. Intentionally making dirty air to screw the guy following you only works if you can get ahead of him in the first place.

User avatar
djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2014 Design

Post

Back in the days of 900+ hp cars and huge diffusers, you could prolly afford to make things a bit more difficult for following cars.
"In downforce we trust"

User avatar
idfx
53
Joined: 20 Dec 2013, 03:18

Re: 2014 Design

Post

Redbull Vortex 2013
Vortice Creation

http://telly.com/1F5LZZS
Interesting footage from RedBullRacing garage with dry ice and fan demonstrating airflow
http://telly.com/1F99MNP

Edit +++ Vortex
Micro Vortex Generators
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcNGwmV1Yio[/youtube]
An in house video made to show how NASA Langley scientists have found ways to improve airplane performance. Micro Vortex Generators placed on airplane wings can reduce drag, increase lift, and reduce fuel consumption. Nice animation and real footage of planes with this technology

Vortec Air Flow Amplifier
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RveQZaYzhfE[/youtube]
----------

User avatar
idfx
53
Joined: 20 Dec 2013, 03:18

Re: 2014 Design

Post

Fernando Alonso & Audi R8 E-Tron
I found this video Fernando Alonso and Andrea Stella "admiring" Audi.
And the official website of Audi found this image of the details of the wheels audi R8 e-tron.
This idea can be adapted in the 2014 regulation ?
It is innovative.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvcH8vs01rk[/youtube]
Image
The Audi R8 e-tron is fitted with size 225/35 and 275/35 tires with optimized rolling resistance. From about 50 km/h (31.07 mph), adjustable flaps close the apertures in the 19-inch wheels by centrifugal force; at low speeds they open again. The active aerodynamic wheels trim about 0.02 off the cD value. Site: fourtitude.com

http://fourtitude.com/news/Audi_News_1/ ... r8-e-tron/

Thanks
----------

Lheela
Lheela
0
Joined: 25 Aug 2013, 18:12

Re: 2014 Design

Post

idfx wrote:Fernando Alonso & Audi R8 E-Tron
I found this video Fernando Alonso and Andrea Stella "admiring" Audi.
And the official website of Audi found this image of the details of the wheels audi R8 e-tron.
This idea can be adapted in the 2014 regulation ?
It is innovative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvcH8vs01rk
http://fourtitude.com/wp-content/upload ... on-435.jpg
The Audi R8 e-tron is fitted with size 225/35 and 275/35 tires with optimized rolling resistance. From about 50 km/h (31.07 mph), adjustable flaps close the apertures in the 19-inch wheels by centrifugal force; at low speeds they open again. The active aerodynamic wheels trim about 0.02 off the cD value. Site: fourtitude.com

http://fourtitude.com/news/Audi_News_1/ ... r8-e-tron/

Thanks
Remember 2012 when Red Bull ducted air through the front axle and through the front rims? It was banned because it was considered a movable aerodynamic device. So I'd say if it has a aerodynamic effect on the car, it cannot move by any means. So this wheel would not be legal.
Also, I don't know the exact rule that banned the wheel covers teams used in 2009, but that may prevent this design too.

Huntresa
Huntresa
54
Joined: 03 Dec 2011, 11:33

Re: 2014 Design

Post

Moveable and a cover, both parts are banned before.

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2014 Design

Post

I was thinking about a possible solution - is it allowed to place the nose tip assymetrical? If so, this might be possible
Image

It's kind of shown crude on the image, but I think the idea and intend should be clear.
#AeroFrodo

User avatar
Holm86
247
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 03:37
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: 2014 Design

Post

turbof1 wrote:I was thinking about a possible solution - is it allowed to place the nose tip assymetrical? If so, this might be possible
http://imageshack.us/a/img268/8427/3g6r.jpg

It's kind of shown crude on the image, but I think the idea and intend should be clear.
AFAIK the center of the nose tip has to be in the center of the car. And I don't get what the idea behind your drawing is.

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2014 Design

Post

Very simple: the nose tip has to be low enough, but if you could place it assymetrically, you could shape it as the right/left FW pillar; the vanity panel could then fill in the opposite pillar. That way you simulate almost perfectly, within dimensional boundaries set by rules, pre-2014 high nose, as looking from the side the nose would still drop in a continual line.
#AeroFrodo

User avatar
Holm86
247
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 03:37
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: 2014 Design

Post

turbof1 wrote:Very simple: the nose tip has to be low enough, but if you could place it assymetrically, you could shape it as the right/left FW pillar; the vanity panel could then fill in the opposite pillar. That way you simulate almost perfectly, within dimensional boundaries set by rules, pre-2014 high nose, as looking from the side the nose would still drop in a continual line.
Okay now I get it. But 1, I don't think the asymmetric design is allowed and 2, the nose cant be attached to the front wing. It has to be connected with 2 pylons.