2013 Malaysian GP - Sepang

[nacho]

I personally am shocked that now suddenly team orders in the second race of the season are considered preferable to cars racing each other!

They were rigging a good race. Brawn robbed us the joy of watching Rosberg go and try to catch the Red Bulls.

[henra]

If they fail to do so, this will unravel into a situation as we had at McLaren between Alonso and Hamilton, where the team itself was also entirely split up and backing either one of the drivers.

Could happen although Alonso / Hamilton is a bit different insofar as the 'hierarchy' between those two was much less clear than between SV and and MW. The future for the Team could potentially have gone either way.
That is not the case between SV and MW. From a Team perspective they will surely be planning the future with SV.
MW may be along for some time or not, but they will not build their plans upon him.

This is another fierce test of Christian Horner, but I'm not sure that even with the best personal management capabilities, trust and respect can be restored.

I'm not sure how much trust there was in the first place between the two but I agree, whatever tiny amount has been there will now be gone competely.

[SiLo]

Really what's in question here is sportsmanship, something that is apparent in ALL sports across the world. Vettel simply put himself before the team, if he wins a world championship by 7 points or less this year then he can look back and say, look, I did that, and we won the constructors championship, but for me it would be a hollow win.

Ask most drivers I'm sure they would rather beat their fellow competitors fair and square, rather than have an advantage.

[vall]

if SV was faster than MW on equal grounds, then I could somehow understand why SV would ungore the pre-agreed team strategy (note it is not a team order, it is a strategy they agreed before the race and SV was only reminded of it). But SV used his unfaid advantage of not switching to Multi-21 mode and overtook WM. That is mean and I understand why Mark was so angry. He just feels fooled.

[jamsbong]

Hang on Hang on!
During the lap 42 to 46, who used what engine map settings, none of us knows for sure. The only clue we have is Webber replying to Seb "multi21, seb!" Did Webber knew for sure that Seb was not on multi21?
Seb could still overtake Webber under the same setting because he has the faster tires.

Just saying....

[Shakeman]

Hang on Hang on!
During the lap 42 to 46, who used what engine map settings, none of us knows for sure. The only clue we have is Webber replying to Seb "multi21, seb!" Did Webber knew for sure that Seb was not on multi21?
Seb could still overtake Webber under the same setting because he has the faster tires.

Just saying....

So the fact the team has acknowledged that Seb disobeyed a team order to hold station which he has subsequently apologised for is completely lost on you?

Just saying...

[jamsbong]

So the fact the team has acknowledged that Seb disobeyed a team order to hold station which he has subsequently apologised for is completely lost on you?

Just saying...

Yes, he did disobeyed some team order. Probably something learnt from his teammate. just saying...

[Unc1e_M0nty]

I think Mulit 21 is both a setting and an instruction, hold station, preserve tyres, fuel, engine, everything. Whatever it means isn't important, it's the understanding, their own team manager understands what it means, that's why I can't understand why some people just wont let this go, Horner has clearly stated that Vettel ignored team orders, you can't ignore an order if you don't understand it.

When Ross Braun was explaining his team decision he said that this scenario was discussed in the pre-race meeting and that both drivers understood, do you really think a team like Red Bull wouldn't do the same thing ?

Of all the instuctions/communication that goes on in the race this is the one Vettel didn't understand ? no, he understood it alright, but he saw red, this was his 2nd pole and his 2nd race win slipping away and he just couldn't take it.

[sAx]

So it is an engine setting or code?

If that question is directed to me, then for my $0.02c its an instruction (explicit) to change the knurled wheel to a setting that controls multiple input parameters, chiefly amongst which is peak engine torque. The instruction to select a lower performance setting, guides the drivers to maintain positions as the lower conservation setting means that the racing is over (implicit). Wherever we place our money, the RB drivers, team principal, technical director and Seb's race engineer, all knew what it meant and it does not require a great leap of the imagination for us to understand similarly.

[sAx]

I think Mulit 21 is both a setting and an instruction, hold station, preserve tyres, fuel, engine, everything. Whatever it means isn't important, it's the understanding, their own team manager understands what it means, that's why I can't understand why some people just wont let this go, Horner has clearly stated that Vettel ignored team orders, you can't ignore an order if you don't understand it.

When Ross Braun was explaining his team decision he said that this scenario was discussed in the pre-race meeting and that both drivers understood, do you really think a team like Red Bull wouldn't do the same thing ?

Of all the instuctions/communication that goes on in the race this is the one Vettel didn't understand ? no, he understood it alright, but he saw red, this was his 2nd pole and his 2nd race win slipping away and he just couldn't take it.

+1 There is some light in the tunnel!

[Kiril Varbanov]

[aral]

Earlier in the race, when Vettel was being held up by Webber, the instructions to hold position were clearly in plain english, as were Brawns instructions to Rosberg, later in the race. There is no reason why any code would be required, to hold station, as such an instruction is not illegal. Further, there would be no reason to code it either, as it affected no other team at that time.

When Vettel (or any other driver) puts on a helmet, they become a RACING DRIVER, and their job is to win.

[Nando]

I´ll use the same analogy when i get to work.

"Sorry boss, but when i get to work and start working i am a worker therefore i will provide for myself...by any means necessary"

My time at work would go from being counted in years to being counted in seconds.

[iotar__]

If you ever needed proof how full of it Red Bull are here comes the spin. Let's throw tyres into that, of course. As a distraction:
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/189262/1/w ... mpaign=rss

Tyres: big fat excuse for everything right now. Everything is caused by tyres, even their own problems, driver disobeying team orders, screwing his team-mate, team's acceptance and lack of reaction. It's because of "tyres". Dumb general public is going to buy this and let's also stroke egos of connoisseurs who "understand" the sport. if you don't mind RB losing you're not a connoisseurs, of course. When teams are using team orders, favouring drivers, giving and taking wings, it's a great example for kids. But let's ignore all that.

Also when one team had tyres of the same brand but somehow different than competitors it was perfectly clear who's the best, right? Same thing with KERS when few could afford or implement it and there were different cars on the grid, everything was crystal clear? No sir, no confusion at all who was the best, the matter Mr Webber is so concerned about now. Comparisons to tennis - laughable. Ever heard of percentage play? Ever heard of net being lower in the middle? Ever heard of waiting for a opponent to make a mistake?

What about costs, when your own team is blocking cost control and damaging the sport and it's competitiveness? What about clique of top teams trying to run this circus together with B.E.? There's no problem at all, everything is peachy, But "tyres" OMG, that's terrible. Get out Mark, go surfing and don't embarrass yourself towing your team's agenda. Oh, I'm sorry I forgot it's all about junior categories and pushing 100% and not your own competitive advantage. Like there is any doubt that if it was RB with tyre management advantage, like in 2011, we wouldn't be hearing a word from them on the subject.

About this not pushing 100% nonsense:
1. I wish I could find a time to search for Senna quotes after some race long ago. Apparently he was set to look after his tyres, but pressure from driver from behind forced him to make an extra effort and made the race difficult. Senna not wanting to go 100% on the limit?! Where is your god now, recent fans/viewers of hagiographic pseudo documentary? Point: preserving tyres, equipment is nothing new to F1, and not much different than saving fuel, or engine, or gearbox.

2. Let's say two drivers are driving at 95% , they're relatively to each other driving at 100%, it's called racing and can create competitive advantage and driver making a difference. Like Alonso showed last season with his championship challenge. Even [stupid non connoisseurs/people who don't blame current tyres for everything] knew who was the best driver in F1.

Everything is because of tyres. For now. Until they figure it out, start winning, and like last year halfway through the season tyres subject magically disappears. Remember this pathetic 180 spin from Red Bull last season: from scripted tyres whining after Barcelona, to short "everything is different" after Monaco win? I can find you quotes to show how it works if you have any doubts. It's funny how the biggest problem was small operating window which was supposed to create lottery results like RB and Mclaren winning all the races. It's not present now but it doesn't matter, whining is the same.

To RB and all other F1 teams:

If you don't like the tyres get together, figure out what kind of tyres you ALL want, and stick to your choice and be responsible for it. Like it's going to happen , they can't agree or figure out the most simplest issues for years and change their mind 5 times a season, lying, cheating, stealing and trading in process.

[myurr]

It's unbelievable how people are ready to sacrifice the joy and excitement of watching real racing (if they ever feel such excitement that is) only to satisfy their hatred towards a driver.

This is an important point. My beef with Vettel isn't that he raced - I wish there were no team orders. For me it's two things. 1) Hypocrisy in that he is happy to benefit from team orders but won't pay it back when they are working against him, and 2) lying about it after the event.

An extension of the first point is that this shows it's not one mans principled stand against team orders, it's instead an attitude that he's somehow owed or deserves all the help from the team in all circumstances. He also didn't have the decency to declare he was ignoring the teams instructions which led to the team reassuring Webber that Vettel's attack was being called off. That meant it wasn't even a fair fight, again this is not something to be celebrated.

So by all means ban team orders, decry their use, but that has to be consistent not a pick'n'mix depending on which driver is benefitting.