Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[turbof1]

That would be an insult to the management of both Renault and Red Bull. Had they had one big fund, I'm pretty sure that they could manage the funds, and thereby resources, appropriately.

The truth simply hurts. Pride, frustration and a bad commitment from both parties has and led and would have always led to what we have now. Had they one big fund, you'd have 2 groups standing an opposite sides argueing who will get the biggest slice. In that case handing the funding over to a group joyful and harmonic group of toddlers would have been a better option.

Closer then you think Turbo...

You are mistaken resources for money again. Red bull does not have the resources to built an engine for themselves. They do have the money to acquire those resources. However, imagine them buying Renault. What then? The same groups of people who criticized eachother are still going to be there. Under one company or not, but they will not stop having the same issues as before. Kick the Renault Group out? You just destroyed the whole expertise on the engine side.

If Red Bull really has to buy a manufacturer, then they should go to Cosworth. Not in any way likely, but it'll atleast give them a fresh start with decent equipment to start with and no road car fuss Red Bull is the least interested in.

I don't know what I am suppose to get out of that article. It simply goes over the fact Red Bull always has options. I don't share your view that this is somehow an argument for Red Bull investing in a joint venture to make a PU operate better in a F1 chassis. The article does not even make any statement about that. Just rebadging engines.

[FoxHound]

The truth simply hurts. Pride, frustration and a bad commitment from both parties has and led and would have always led to what we have now. Had they one big fund, you'd have 2 groups standing an opposite sides argueing who will get the biggest slice. In that case handing the funding over to a group joyful and harmonic group of toddlers would have been a better option.

I don't share that view, but I won't deny it is a possibility. But you cannot say for certain and nor can I.

You are mistaken resources for money again. Red bull does not have the resources to built an engine for themselves. They do have the money to acquire those resources.

There is no mistake Turbo, you've contradicted yourself. Red Bull have the money to make the choice if they want to build an engine or not. De facto, they have the ability to produce an engine in a set time scale as yet undefined.
I agree, as of right now they cannot. But this can change at the stroke of a pen, do you agree?

I don't know what I am suppose to get out of that article. It simply goes over the fact Red Bull always has options.

That's exactly what I wanted you to get from the article. And that the current "F1 is so unfair because we can't win due to not having Ferrari or Merc engines" position, is one Red Bull themselves have the power to overcome without resorting to threats and insults.

[turbof1]

There is no mistake Turbo, you've contradicted yourself. Red Bull have the money to make the choice if they want to build an engine or not. De facto, they have the ability to produce an engine in a set time scale as yet undefined.
I agree, as of right now they cannot. But this can change at the stroke of a pen, do you agree?

Where oh where is my contradiction? Red Bull also has the money to send a space shuttle to the moon. Do they have the resources? No. Excactly the same for building their own PU.

In theory men can make unicorns and Manor can become a tenth time successive WCC. If Red Bull wants to throw away their profitability and in the long term risk bankruptcy, then yes: it can change at such a stroke.

Is that going to happen in reality though? No, never in a million years. Red Bull is not in F1 for charity. I absolutely have no clue why we are still discussing this. Red Bull is not going to become a manufacturer.

[dans79]

Red Bull is not going to become a manufacturer.

Them they should really shut-up, or quit then, because they have complained about the motor, or any other perceived slight, for as long as I care to remember. For example in 2010, you had Horner, & Newey, complaining, and demanding equalization.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84119

yep, even back then they wined about frozen in advantages.

"The problem is, as it always has been, that under the current regulations, the way that the freeze currently is, you freeze in advantages and disadvantages, and you might think it is ironic that I sit here talking about an engine disadvantage despite having six pole positions and three wins.

and here you have Horner complaining about the 2012 exhaust rule changes.
http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/horne ... -red-bull/

I Don't know about the Average worker at RBR, but the upper management, is a bunch of whiny little primadonnas, who throw a fit any time something doesn't go their way. RBR will never survive long term in F1, because anything short of winning is unacceptable to them. The upper management is exactly like the demographic they sell their actual product to, short sighted, and only interested in instant gratification.

I feel sorry for the drivers, and the many other staff members who's jobs really only apply to F1, who are most likely going to be out of a job at the end of the season.

[turbof1]

I agree Dans. Although I'm pretty sure that if Red Bull would enter for instance Lemans that all of the staff can be transferred. In any case, Horner already told they would give a new function to all their staff in any case. Take it or leave, I don't know how trustworthy that his word is, but it's not guaranteed either there will be layoffs in case of an exit.

[Gaz.]

I agree Dans. Although I'm pretty sure that if Red Bull would enter for instance Lemans that all of the staff can be transferred. In any case, Horner already told they would give a new function to all their staff in any case. Take it or leave, I don't know how trustworthy that his word is, but it's not guaranteed either there will be layoffs in case of an exit.

How many WEC teams have 500 employees? The three factory LMP1 teams might but they also make their own engines too. I'm not too clued up on the politics of WEC but it doesn't seem like they can just rock up with a LMP1 chassis and ask to purchase a Porsche power train.

[turbof1]

I agree Dans. Although I'm pretty sure that if Red Bull would enter for instance Lemans that all of the staff can be transferred. In any case, Horner already told they would give a new function to all their staff in any case. Take it or leave, I don't know how trustworthy that his word is, but it's not guaranteed either there will be layoffs in case of an exit.

How many WEC teams have 500 employees? The three factory LMP1 teams might but they also make their own engines too. I'm not too clued up on the politics of WEC but it doesn't seem like they can just rock up with a LMP1 chassis and ask to purchase a Porsche power train.

It's up to debate of course, and for another time in the future (perhaps in the near future?). I don't see Red Bull firing the staff in any case. They are competing in more then enough motorsport disciplines.

[Jonnycraig]

Let's be honest, even if RB shut up shop and laid everyone off, the overwhelming majority would walk into jobs with smaller teams.

[bhall II]

I have never heard an engine supplier asking for money from a team that is supposed to be their works team

The idea is to solidify the entire team's efforts, and no one bats an eye when money flows the other way.

Adrian Newey on the nature of the current rules...

“The blend, in my opinion, should be driver, chassis and engine, and at the moment I think it’s very much skewed towards the engine.”

“The chassis regulations have become over-restricted, and the problem for us is that the cars all look the same, and it’s difficult to differentiate from my point of view as designer. (It’s) difficult to find new avenues. I do feel we have become over-restricted,” Newey admitted.

Christian Horner on the financial muscle of his team's partner...

"They perhaps don't have the budget of some of the others but they have been prudent in how they spend it."

With that in mind, on what planet does it make sense to sink over $800 million (1)(2) into chassis development between last season and this season when you know it cannot possibly make the difference between winning and losing, and when you know your partner is, and has been, seriously outgunned (Mercedes spend: $202 million, Renault: $56 million)?

In any partnership, the onus is on both parties to make things work. That's why I think efforts to blame one side over the other are ultimately misguided. At the end of the day, this partnership had every tool needed to succeed, from combined resources to specialized expertise. They just screwed it up, because both sides failed to adapt to F1's changing landscape.

EDIT:

Merc and Ferrari engine budgets don't come team but the board of the parent company that the Daimler and Ferrari

And those monies are strategically allocated according to the needs of the entire project, not any single component thereof. The source of it all is irrelevant.

[zeph]

With that in mind, on what planet does it make sense to sink over $800 million (1)(2) into chassis development between last season and this season when you know it cannot possibly make the difference between winning and losing, and you know your partner is, and has been, seriously outgunned (Mercedes spend as of last year: $202 million, Renault: $56 million)?

In any partnership, the onus is on both parties to make things work. That's why I think efforts to blame one side over the other are ultimately misguided. At the end of the day, this partnership had every tool needed to succeed, from combined resources to specialized expertise. They just screwed it up, because both sides failed to adapt to F1's changing landscape.

EDIT:

Merc and Ferrari engine budgets don't come team but the board of the parent company that the Daimler and Ferrari

And those monies are strategically allocated according to the needs of the entire project, not any single component thereof. The source of it all is irrelevant.

Interestingly, this just reported today: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121135

Looks like winning was more important to Mercedes GP than balancing the check book.

[turbof1]

Well, they made 77 million pounds loss. One can interpret that as an investment of 77 million pounds into the marketing department. Given you both won the WDC, WCC and simply have the best engine, on a worldwide scale that investment probably pays off due extra sales.

Also, the development costs of the PU can be converted to R&D costs for road cars. The energy recuperation technology is quite universally appliable.

This is something Red Bull could never do. "Hey do you want an energy recuperation system to go along with that energy drink?"

[dans79]

Interestingly, this just reported today: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121135

Looks like winning was more important to Mercedes GP than balancing the check book.

Being in the red is fine, if you eventually end up in the black overall. They picked up lotus, and it sounds like even if Renault buys them they will run Merc engines till 2017. They pick up Marussia net year, and the article adds this key fact.

The agreement with the Commercial Rights Holder has provisions for significantly increased revenue flows based on sporting performance, some of which will be triggered in 2015 as a result of the team's performance in 2014

Not to mention all the free advertising Merc got last year.

[bhall II]

Looks like winning was more important to Mercedes GP than balancing the check book.

While money doesn't guarantee success, it's difficult to be successful without money.

Points scored relative to team budgets from 1999-2014:


Source: F1Metrics

[ME4ME]

With that in mind, on what planet does it make sense to sink over $800 million (1)(2) into chassis development between last season and this season when you know it cannot possibly make the difference between winning and losing, and when you know your partner is, and has been, seriously outgunned (Mercedes spend: $202 million, Renault: $56 million)?

Well there you have it, they exact reason Red Bull does not want 2015-spec engines. It's the same situation, they can poor all the money they want on chassi development, but it would make no sense because they're out-powered anyway. I'm sure they'll offer some big money to Ferrari for 2016 engines, but I doubt that'll make any difference.

[Johnlub]

I agree Dans. Although I'm pretty sure that if Red Bull would enter for instance Lemans that all of the staff can be transferred. In any case, Horner already told they would give a new function to all their staff in any case. Take it or leave, I don't know how trustworthy that his word is, but it's not guaranteed either there will be layoffs in case of an exit.

How many WEC teams have 500 employees? The three factory LMP1 teams might but they also make their own engines too. I'm not too clued up on the politics of WEC but it doesn't seem like they can just rock up with a LMP1 chassis and ask to purchase a Porsche power train.

I believe the diesel gate mixed a few things up at VW. but imagine the possibility: red bull enters le mans, gets a VW engine (audi or porsche) and in 2 yrs time when nobody speaks of the billion dollars burnt by diesel gate, red bull re-enters F1 with the respecting engine manufacture =D>