2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[codetower]

On a related note, I don’t agree with an arbitrary step at 5% for transgressors. Surely it makes more sense to have some kind of formula for punishments that gives a sliding scale without steps in it.
Maybe (the overspend / 100000 )squared, as a deduction in points for both drivers. So 100k overspend means 1 point off, 200k means 4 points off, etc. it would very soon become very expensive if you go over.

Strictly speaking, a financial penalty is pointless. Fines and penalties are outside the cap. Its safe to say these F1 teams have hundreds of millions of budget available to them. If they get fined £20m for breaking the budget rules thats probably not bad business overall.

Your biggest penalties are going to be a points deduction, a reduction in the cap, or a reduction in wind tunnel time. What the FIA should do is take last years overspend off next years budget (although they cant do that for '22 now) and add say 5% onto that figure. That way if a team went over by £5m, they would have £140m - 5% so a total spend of £133m (not using true figures for 2022) That way the penalty is severe enough and cuts out the millions these teams can afford to throw away for the FIA christmas parties.

Continued breaches or really severe ones should result in a points deduction for the constructors, since I dont think its fair to punish the drivers for the teams wrong doing.

My strong belief is that they will impose a hefty fine AND dock constructors points... but not enough to affect any outcome (last year or this), but enough to deter teams from breaching the cap. It's a win win for everyone.

[LM10]

Mercedes are ready to 'cheat'...

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/ ... _sanction/

If the FIA is not ready to penalize cheaters, then those having been cheated on will absolutely do the same. You know why? Because then it’ll mean that cheating is allowed.

[dans79]

Continued breaches or really severe ones should result in a points deduction for the constructors, since I dont think its fair to punish the drivers for the teams wrong doing.

I'd have to personally disagree with that, as some teams have shown they care far more about the wdc than they do the wcc as the wdc means better marketing for them!

[chrisc90]

Red Bull Racing are one of the most competitive and detail-orientated businesses on the planet.

Getting basic maths wrong is possible, even in an F1 team.
Not running it past the FIA to be sure (there's no downside to running everything past the FIA beforehand) is possible.
But it's not likely. Unless...human's are fallible.

I agree, but also disagree there. If a team seeks a clarification, that clarification gets distributed to all teams. So if one team has found a loophole they are neigh on certain they can get away with, that means every other team knows about it and can also use it.

My strong belief is that they will impose a hefty fine AND dock constructors points... but not enough to affect any outcome (last year or this), but enough to deter teams from breaching the cap. It's a win win for everyone.

I dont think there will even be a deduction of points this time around. I feel there will be a hefty fine (makes no difference in reality) and probably a re-worked budget for 2023. RB will be constructors champions come next sunday, so will already have the lowest wind tunnel time on the grid, which is probably another factor why the FIA wont go that route.

If the FIA is not ready to penalize cheaters, then those having been cheated will absolutely do the same. You know why? Because then it’ll mean that cheating is allowed.

Yeah, could get totally out of hand. All the teams could just agree not to respect the budget (very unlikely given the low budget smaller teams) but if they did then the penalty will be the same for everyone.

[KeiKo403]

On a related note, I don’t agree with an arbitrary step at 5% for transgressors. Surely it makes more sense to have some kind of formula for punishments that gives a sliding scale without steps in it.
Maybe (the overspend / 100000 )squared, as a deduction in points for both drivers. So 100k overspend means 1 point off, 200k means 4 points off, etc. it would very soon become very expensive if you go over.

The only problem with giving a formula is teams would know how much they could go over by. Red Bull have already won the WDC with 4 races to spare, theoretically Max could outscore Charles by 114 points (sprint race win is 10 yeah?) and 4 fastest laps. They’ll know that by 20th November so they’ll have 6 weeks to safely know how much over the budget cap they could go. Imagine being able to spend an extra £1m on additional raw materials etc for the coming seasons.

Didn’t mean to poopoo you’re idea though sorry

[Just_a_fan]

It could be a absolutely brilliant move from RB, spend a bit more and pay a small penalty for doing so. I don’t blame Toto really, if the penalty is small, then it shows it’s worth the risk/overspend.

It's brilliant to cheat? Is that a general Red Bull fan position or just your own?

[chrisc90]

It could be a absolutely brilliant move from RB, spend a bit more and pay a small penalty for doing so. I don’t blame Toto really, if the penalty is small, then it shows it’s worth the risk/overspend.

It's brilliant to cheat? Is that a general Red Bull fan position or just your own?

Im not even going to bother going round in circles with my comments in regards to that. It will add no value to the thread. Risk vs Reward.....

[Just_a_fan]

Mercedes are ready to 'cheat'...

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/ ... _sanction/

If the FIA is not ready to penalize cheaters, then those having been cheated on will absolutely do the same. You know why? Because then it’ll mean that cheating is allowed.

Exactly. If it's OK for Red Bull to cheat then it's ok for everyone else. That's the position the FIA is in. Your choice, FIA.

[Just_a_fan]

It could be a absolutely brilliant move from RB, spend a bit more and pay a small penalty for doing so. I don’t blame Toto really, if the penalty is small, then it shows it’s worth the risk/overspend.

It's brilliant to cheat? Is that a general Red Bull fan position or just your own?

Im not even going to bother going round in circles with my comments in regards to that. It will add no value to the thread. Risk vs Reward.....

By "risk vs reward" you mean "cheat vs not cheat". OK.

[codetower]

My strong belief is that they will impose a hefty fine AND dock constructors points... but not enough to affect any outcome (last year or this), but enough to deter teams from breaching the cap. It's a win win for everyone.

I don't think there will even be a deduction of points this time around. I feel there will be a hefty fine (makes no difference in reality) and probably a re-worked budget for 2023. RB will be constructors champions come next sunday, so will already have the lowest wind tunnel time on the grid, which is probably another factor why the FIA wont go that route.

I think if they ONLY impose a fine, it will cause major backlash from the other teams. They can't only impose a fine, then re-work the budget when, allegedly, all 9 other teams were able to come in below the budget. If RB are found to have gone over the budget by a decent amount, a simple fine and re-work would appear to only reward RedBull with the fact that they were the first to break the rule.

If leniency is granted to the first one to break the rule... well then, let the chaos begin.

[hardingfv32]

The FIA and teams could not get the shorten race points allocation correct. Why would anyone think that the cost control rules are going to be spot on the first time they are applied. These are financial regulations which neither the FIA or teams have any experience establishing.

Brian

[dans79]

The FIA and teams could not get the shorten race points allocation correct. Why would anyone think that the cost control rules are going to be spot on the first time they are applied. These are financial regulations which neither the FIA or teams have any experience establishing.

Brian

The thing is, the FIA isn't the one doing the work, independent firms are.

Just read this and look at how many different ways The teams are told it is on them to comply, and ensure they are in compliance.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... iss.12.pdf

for example

2.11 The F1 Team should seek clarification from the Cost Cap Administration if it is uncertain
whether an entity should be included in its Reporting Group.

then you have the entire whistleblower section.

6.17 The Cost Cap Administration may grant partial or total immunity to any natural person who
discloses facts that are likely to constitute an infringement referred to in Article 8 of these
Financial Regulations, and/or who provides evidence allowing such facts to be prosecuted and
penalised. The degree of immunity granted to this person by the Cost Cap Administration
depends on the following factors:

And then you have this sledge hammer article.

9.8 In the event that:
(a) an F1 Team’s Full Year Reporting Documentation is incomplete, inaccurate or
misleading in any material respect; and

(b) the Cost Cap Adjudication Panel determines that that F1 Team’s CEO, CFO, Team
Principal and/or Technical Director was aware, or ought reasonably to have been
aware, of the same,

the Cost Cap Adjudication Panel may impose any of the sanctions permitted under the
International Sporting Code on the individual(s) concerned, with the exclusion of fines.

The regs read as you will comply, or you will feel the pain!

Mark my words their will be fire and brimstone if Redbull gets off with nothing but a smack across the wrist!

[SuperCNJ]

Continued breaches or really severe ones should result in a points deduction for the constructors, since I dont think its fair to punish the drivers for the teams wrong doing.

The thing is, the driver is part of the team. You cannot win a Constructors Championship without the driver, and you cannot win a Driver's Championship without the Constructor. Yes we have two separate championships, but they are intrinsically linked. The driver cannot win the drivers championship if they didn't have a car that performed well. And if that performance is founded on illegitimate advantages then surely the driver should also be penalised because the driver wouldn't have won the points they did if the car was not performing illegitimately better. I think if they are going to deduct championship points, it needs to be from both championships.

In cycling, if the authorities find a bike with mechanical doping, the rider is disqualified (not just the team). Authorities need to take a very hard stance on any form of cheating, otherwise, there is no point in competing.

[Tvetovnato]

On a related note, I don’t agree with an arbitrary step at 5% for transgressors. Surely it makes more sense to have some kind of formula for punishments that gives a sliding scale without steps in it.
Maybe (the overspend / 100000 )squared, as a deduction in points for both drivers. So 100k overspend means 1 point off, 200k means 4 points off, etc. it would very soon become very expensive if you go over.

Strictly speaking, a financial penalty is pointless. Fines and penalties are outside the cap. Its safe to say these F1 teams have hundreds of millions of budget available to them. If they get fined £20m for breaking the budget rules thats probably not bad business overall.

Your biggest penalties are going to be a points deduction, a reduction in the cap, or a reduction in wind tunnel time. What the FIA should do is take last years overspend off next years budget (although they cant do that for '22 now) and add say 5% onto that figure. That way if a team went over by £5m, they would have £140m - 5% so a total spend of £133m (not using true figures for 2022) That way the penalty is severe enough and cuts out the millions these teams can afford to throw away for the FIA christmas parties.

Continued breaches or really severe ones should result in a points deduction for the constructors, since I dont think its fair to punish the drivers for the teams wrong doing.

But the driver might have won with a car that was illegal. Hence the driver must be punished as a result. Should Mercedes have been fined in Brazil last year then and Hamilton escaped punishment? It wasn’t Hamilton who put together the wing. In fact, if a driver ran a blatantly illegal car, he can never be punished as you can always blame the team since they design and build the car by that reasoning. So, let’s go cheat everyone!

[dans79]

Continued breaches or really severe ones should result in a points deduction for the constructors, since I dont think its fair to punish the drivers for the teams wrong doing.

The thing is, the driver is part of the team. You cannot win a Constructors Championship without the driver, and you cannot win a Driver's Championship without the Constructor. Yes we have two separate championships, but they are intrinsically linked. The driver cannot win the drivers championship if they didn't have a car that performed well. And if that performance is founded on illegitimate advantages then surely the driver should also be penalised because the driver wouldn't have won the points they did if the car was not performing illegitimately better. I think if they are going to deduct championship points, it needs to be from both championships.

In cycling, if the authorities find a bike with mechanical doping, the rider is disqualified (not just the team). Authorities need to take a very hard stance on any form of cheating, otherwise, there is no point in competing.

Yep,
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 1Uy9c.html