2024 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 01 - 03

[marcel171281]

It is irrelevant whether changing tyres is allowed under red flags or not. Is just changes the one who benefit.
With the current rules, the ones staying out will benefit, as they have a free stop. If you don't allow tyre changes under red, the ones pitted before the red flag benefit the same way, as the ones that did not pit will either have to do that after the restart and fall back to (nearly) last place (dry race), or if they don't pit (wet race), are in front on way older tyres for the rest of the race.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Either way, discussions will stay.

The issue is that the current system encourages drivers to stay out on inappropriate tyres to benefit from changing under the inevitable red flag. But this itself raises the chance of causing crashes/red flags. There needs to be a change for safety reasons

Ah come on. 99% of the people having problems with the current rules is because the teams, driver and/or fan of those did not get the desired result. If the situation is reversed, by not letting tyres get changed under red, the same people will have the same problems if it again is not in favour of their (favourite) team/driver.

If you want to put in on safety, Pirelli should provide a decent alternative for the intermediates, don't blame it on these rules.

BTW, these rules are the same in dry conditions and then the same discussion always arrises, by disappointed teams and fans. Again, there is no ideal rule, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Indycar has the opposite rule (no pitting under SC/red) and there is also always discussion, because it sometime benefits some drivers and others not.

[dialtone]

Ah come on. 99% of the people having problems with the current rules is because the teams, driver and/or fan of those did not get the desired result. If the situation is reversed, by not letting tyres get changed under red, the same people will have the same problems if it again is not in favour of their (favourite) team/driver.

While that may be true, the drivers themselves have expressed dissatisfaction with this state of wet driving. Full wet tires have only really been used to do a handful of laps at spa. Checo was on full wets in brazil and if I'm not mistaken he said he was fine on them during the harder rain. Red flag a session because you're on the wrong tire isn't good racing, drive slow and go change them. Not much was going to change in the race actually if race director just forced a pit stop to wets, perhaps Checo was going to be in 1st with that.

[lucafo]

All of this can be sorted by re-arranging cars during red flag. The cars that want to change tires during red flag, add a pre-determined pitstop time to their race time (based on where they were before the red flag), and then arrange cars based on those times / positions. Drivers can choose not to take new tyres during red flag, for track position.

If the lead car changes tyres during red flag, add a pitstop time (e.g. 22 seconds), and every car that was within that time of the leader, moves up once place.

That sounds a great idea!
Applicable even for dry and wet.

F1 competitions rules used to be technically oriented, but now it is oriented to create caos and not expected results.

[Wouter]

And all that in a car that was far from the best in the field.

That's just plain obviously false.

.
Is it? Then you don't know the facts. I leave it at this because I don't agree with everything else you stated.
.

Verstappen was not the only rookie in the Formula 3 field in 2014, but he did have the least experience.
Most of the drivers had already gained experience in cars in Formula 4 or Formula Renault.

1. Verstappen qualified fourth for the first race at Silverstone, which is a good performance for a rookie considering the context.
However, the Limburger was unable to finish the race, as the power limitation of the Van Amersfoort car had been activated from the start because the PU was malfunctioning. Verstappen tumbled to last place in the blink of an eye, before deciding to park his car.

2. The second weekend at the Hockenheimring started off really dramatically for the Dutchman. During the first race,
Verstappen was allowed to start from pole position, but the material refused to cooperate. On the way to the grid, the engine broke down, forcing him to watch from the sidelines as rival Ocon took the win.

3. Ocon had built up a considerable lead in the title fight and this was increased after Verstappen had to abandon the first race in Hungary due to clutch problems.

4. In Moscow, it was Ocon again who managed to win all the races of the weekend, while Verstappen stood on the podium twice. The second race that weekend, the steering rod of his car broke.

5. During the first race at the Nürburgring, he immediately managed to win. In the second race, the car was hit by bad luck again
and Verstappen had to stop the race prematurely again.

6. The last two rounds of the championship were driven at Imola and the Hockenheimring. After the retirements in Austria and Germany due to technical problems, the title was very far away for Verstappen.
After winning six races in a row in Belgium and Germany, Verstappen seemed on his way to grabbing the title,
but the Dutchman had far too often technical problems with his car.
Nevertheless, the Dutchman's year in Formula 3 was exceptionally good. First of all, it is important for a driver to beat his teammates.
The rookie made almost no mistakes in that. Both Gustavo Menezes and Jules Szymkowiak never managed to finish
above their Dutch teammate in the races in which all three drivers managed to finish.

P3 Max Verstappen DNF -5 - 2 -DNF -DNS -1 -3 -DNF -DNF -DNF -16 -4 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -3 -DNF -2 -5 -4 -12 -1 -DNF -3 -DNF
-2 -1 -1 -5 -6 Points -411

[Sieper]

I’d like to add that Ocon did not make a single overtake on Max that season (and no penalties or so involved) while Max made plenty on Ocon.

This season always gets window dressed by the nay sayers while it was outstanding what Max achieved, with that Volkswagen engine no less.

[Watto]

All of this can be sorted by re-arranging cars during red flag. The cars that want to change tires during red flag, add a pre-determined pitstop time to their race time (based on where they were before the red flag), and then arrange cars based on those times / positions. Drivers can choose not to take new tyres during red flag, for track position.

If the lead car changes tyres during red flag, add a pitstop time (e.g. 22 seconds), and every car that was within that time of the leader, moves up once place.

I think though if you're going to do that you also have a system in place where teams that pit under green conditions aren't disadvantaged over a team that pitted under a SC/VSC/Yellow flag all of them can be exploited with a little 'luck'

[dialtone]

Just move anyone that changes anything to the back of the grid as it would happen under safety car in those conditions.

[Dunlay]

Just move anyone that changes anything to the back of the grid as it would happen under safety car in those conditions.

I agree. Red Flag should enforce parc ferme. No changes allowed and any change should send the car to the back of the grid. This lottery nonsense has been going on for far too long. I am sure every top driver's fans have tasted the bad side atleast once. So there should be no argument.

[Watto]

Just move anyone that changes anything to the back of the grid as it would happen under safety car in those conditions.

I agree. Red Flag should enforce parc ferme. No changes allowed and any change should send the car to the back of the grid. This lottery nonsense has been going on for far too long. I am sure every top driver's fans have tasted the bad side atleast once. So there should be no argument.

Sure. But is it really any different to a driver that has no chance of winning the race staying after every car has pitted. If they did pit under green/normal conditions. They would be mid field.The SC allows them to maintain the lead or be very very close to it when it goes green again on 'new' tyres. Plenty of teams stay out just hoping this happens knowing they didn't have the best car that would win in any normal conditions. Every driver has used it over the years and I think you're splitting hairs really.

If you made a delta of the differene between a green and yellow/SC pit stop, pit under yellow you're held for 10 seconds in your grid spot. If no one had pitted, it pretty much maintains places, If someone pitted a few laps earlier but still has new tyres and would stay out anyway they aren't disadvantage etc either. Can choose to pit again still have the SC pit delta if you choose to.


I think really there are all kinds of scenarios where a team can be screwed over by things they had no control over.

[dialtone]

If you ‘stay out’ and don’t change tires, you’ll need to change them soon enough after the restart and you go back.

Having teams trying to risk/game the SC/red flag is nonsense, teams should be racing as if that’s a non factor. Being allowed to fix the car and change tires under red flags is garbage.

FIA WEC Spa was a joke, brazil was a joke (max still deserved the win), when Ferrari won a race in 2017 or so due to red flag was a joke.

These luck factors need to be eliminated.

[Watto]

If you ‘stay out’ and don’t change tires, you’ll need to change them soon enough after the restart and you go back.

Having teams trying to risk/game the SC/red flag is nonsense, teams should be racing as if that’s a non factor. Being allowed to fix the car and change tires under red flags is garbage.

FIA WEC Spa was a joke, brazil was a joke (max still deserved the win), when Ferrari won a race in 2017 or so due to red flag was a joke.

These luck factors need to be eliminated.

Agree - Just saying if you're going to do it for red flags you have to do it too for pitting under normal SC conditions if you pitted. Someone crashed on your out lap gets say a VSC and you're disadvantaged 10-12 seconds (what ever the delta between a normal and a SC stop is) or stayed out an extra 15-20 laps have just enough time to pit and remain in the lead or be 2nd on a brand new set of tyres vs an opponents old. Or just have the pits closed under safety car conditions unless the FIA/stewards deem your car has too much damage and needs to come in for repairs. Keeps everyone on a level playing field. Both ways can be exploited and are regularly enough by teams.

[Farnborough]

It is irrelevant whether changing tyres is allowed under red flags or not. Is just changes the one who benefit.
With the current rules, the ones staying out will benefit, as they have a free stop. If you don't allow tyre changes under red, the ones pitted before the red flag benefit the same way, as the ones that did not pit will either have to do that after the restart and fall back to (nearly) last place (dry race), or if they don't pit (wet race), are in front on way older tyres for the rest of the race.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Either way, discussions will stay.

The issue is that the current system encourages drivers to stay out on inappropriate tyres to benefit from changing under the inevitable red flag. But this itself raises the chance of causing crashes/red flags. There needs to be a change for safety reasons

Ah come on. 99% of the people having problems with the current rules is because the teams, driver and/or fan of those did not get the desired result. If the situation is reversed, by not letting tyres get changed under red, the same people will have the same problems if it again is not in favour of their (favourite) team/driver.

If you want to put in on safety, Pirelli should provide a decent alternative for the intermediates, don't blame it on these rules.

BTW, these rules are the same in dry conditions and then the same discussion always arrises, by disappointed teams and fans. Again, there is no ideal rule, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Indycar has the opposite rule (no pitting under SC/red) and there is also always discussion, because it sometime benefits some drivers and others not.

Agree with this marcel, everyone coming up with a series of concoction to bring an outcome they favour seeming to advocate a rules re write at each point something happens they disagree with.

[dialtone]

Agree with this marcel, everyone coming up with a series of concoction to bring an outcome they favour seeming to advocate a rules re write at each point something happens they disagree with.

really bad take honestly.

[Farnborough]

Agree with this marcel, everyone coming up with a series of concoction to bring an outcome they favour seeming to advocate a rules re write at each point something happens they disagree with.

really bad take honestly.

True though either people want to watch a sport as it exists, or perhaps do something else with their time.

The scenario of personal slight, because they don't like the outcome is amusing.

The competitors accept the rules, by their inclusion through making entry. Its just untenable to change it it for every spurious reason that someone didn't like.

[Sevach]

If you want to put in on safety, Pirelli should provide a decent alternative for the intermediates, don't blame it on these rules.

With a single tire manufacturer it makes no sense to have the intermediate be so geared for almost dry running imo.

The extremes are already in that territory where when people start putting them they call a stop to the race, might as well not exist.
Make a single tire that is more capable in dealing with water.