Mercedes GP - Inauguration and 1st season

[xpensive]

Xpensive,
You dont think the flexing wing to be as controversial? It shouldnt flex as per the spirit of the law, there will be a miniscule amount of flex sure, but to the extent of Red Bull?
Does this therefore mean they are cheating too?

The DDD was part of Honda Williams and Toyota. Williams and Toyota were nowhere last year too.
Its all in the game to qutoe a phrase from The Wire

I'm talking about Red Bull you schm**k, only I'm adding that when it comes to circumvent the rules, nobody has as much xperience as RB and MS, there's no telling what they will come up with in the flexing department next year!

[andrew]

I think it is part of becoming the best is learning how to basically get away with murder. That's what makes the best of the best stand out as the best.

Couple examples:

Would Senna have won the title in 1990 and be heralded as one of the greats if he didn't ram Prost off the track in Japan?

Would Schumacher have scored 2 WDC with Benetton and have the title as the best if he didn't push the drivers rules pretty far in 94 & 95?

Would Red Bull have won everything if their car didn't bend?

I'm sure there are more examples, but you see what I'm getting at in a very roundabout way?

Being conservative gets you know where but having huge cajones/self belief and pushing the rules as far as you can pushes you that final step above the rest of the field. That is what Ross Brawn has done in the past. Last year it was the double diffuser which should have been a brilliant idea but it was somewaht marred by the hand of MrM.

That's what I rekon anyway.

[gridwalker]

Andrew, I think you are thinking Senna Vs Prost 1990 ...

[andrew]

Yes that's the one, 1990! Post edited, thanks.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Xpensive

I have read reams and reams of text with Ross brawn over the years, the guy is a legend, and rightly so. Of course he has the potential to extract every last drop of potential from his team, we saw this in 2009.
I wouldnt write of Mercedes simply because Brawn can and has pulled rabbits out the hat before.

Im not saying Mercedes need a miracle, but if someone of Brawns calibre is around things tend to happen.

No Senna debates here please, we all know he was the greatest....

[segedunum]

Ross Brawn is an organisational guy but the real thinkers at Ferrari with him were Rory Byrne and Nikolas Tombazis, who is now Chief Designer at Ferrari but did their aerodynamics at Benetton as well. He's the one who did the aerodynamic wizardry. Frankly, I would pay him any amount of money to head up the design department at Mercedes because I can see that as their only way to get ahead. Otherwise, no dice. It's too late to recruit him now so that's my prediction for next season - no dice.

Ross Brawn and Schumacher eventually ended up winning with Ferrari, but I'm not sure people realise just how many stops needed to be pulled to make that happen - including knobbling their main opponents (Newey designed cars) over engine and tyre regulations. Loopholes didn't really come into it.

Mercedes certainly need a loophole because that's the only way they're going to beat the three other teams they need to beat. The engine and the KERS system is the only sure advantage they have right now, and McLaren also have that, but no doubt Newey will poke Renault over the winter as he always does.

[mkoscevic]

It's too late to recruit him now so that's my prediction for next season - no dice.

As always it's a bit naive to think like that... about Engineering Gods in F1. For sure there are few guys out there who're able to think with a big picture in mind, but none is stand-alone magician behind the winning car. While individuals create wonderful ideas, you actually have to have strong team to get that done right in practice.

I'm sure Mercedes can get it done right next year.

[marcush.]

Still I do NOT get how you can KNOW that Brawn is a moron unable to get things sorted.
He is not just in F1 because it pleases Mr.Ecclestone ,right? He was able to drag a huge amount of money out of Mercedes pocket and still produce a halfway decent result.
All in all they beat Renault the almost masters of this year in development .Kubica is behind Rosberg that is a fact so the Renault simply was not better over the cause of the year ..and they have sort of pulled all the plugs to get ahead.
Brawn has a textbook career in F1 with a lot of titles .he for sure is not of the same calibre as Newey in terms of car design concepts but then ,who is?
As the years move on the degree of freedom for Newey will reduce again till being an insignificant advantage...and he could lose interest tomorrow...as he did before.

Brawns talents are not the same as Neweys but I would really not like to be involved in a team masterminded by Newey for that matter...it is comparing apples and oranges here and does not do justice to both of them.for sure both are exceptional and influental people both capable of providing an edge to a team enabling to challenge for titles..as proved in recent decades.

[segedunum]

You can certainly see the results of a team after certain people have left or joined. Byrne took a back seat and Ferrari sank in 2005. Tombazis returned and the 2006 car was totally overhauled, because they were actually a long way behind. I suspect Byrne prodded to get him back.

To put a winning car together you need the right people and that's not a naive thing to say when you look at results over a period of years. It's got nothing to do with people being gods, they're people. If you get the right people then you always have a better chance, as is the case in any organisation.

[marcush.]

ah.....you can work this from either side really .The Brawn of 2009 was a winning winner
and they did not have any of your beloved heros .
Newey was a long time in RedBull before a first sign of a competitive car was showing..
James key came to sauber and instantly things seemed to take a turn...whereas Force india started a downward spiral... and both had fixed homologated tubs...so how was he able to turn things around..williams have not done any significant personal changes (drivers apart) still they are more competitive.You can always see things if you like to.
the Ferrari of last years was a heap of --- ,Tombazis there or not.

[xpensive]

...
Brawn has a textbook career in F1 with a lot of titles .he for sure is not of the same calibre as Newey in terms of car design concepts but then ,who is?
...

For the umptenth time marcush, Ross Brawn was never an F1 designer per se, he's not even an engineer, Rory Byrne was with him all the way from Benetton to Ferrari. As "Technical director", he's a very competent organizer, but that's a whole different ballgame, he probaby wouldn't know where to begin if asked to design a Formula one car.

[Raptor22]

hmmm well Ross Brawn may not be a certified Engineer but he holds an apprenticeship in Instrumentation and has worked in an engineers capacity at Williams in the early 80's.
He was also the key person behind the concept and design of the Jaguar XJR14 car that won the SportsCar Chamnpionship in 1991.

He is not a hands on designer but more of an Engineering manager. At Benetton, concept and oversight of the design process belonged to Rory Byrne, Tombasis was responsible for Aerodynamics.

Even At Red BUll, Adrian Newey is mostly responsible for the basic concept of the car but he has a team of engineers who integrate the ideas from the different departments. Newey is basically in the same rle as Brawn its just that he has a more publically visible hand in the design of the car.
Ross Brawn knows exactly hwere to begin when designing an F1 car thats why was the Technical Director ad so successful at it.

[segedunum]

ah.....you can work this from either side really .The Brawn of 2009 was a winning winner and they did not have any of your beloved heros .

The Brawn of 2009 was an example that if you wait long enough and spend a spectacular amount of money and have a long lead time then it's possible to get some results (but not always - just ask BMW), but frankly it was a poor return on the investment because it wasn't sustained (not that Brawn invested anything!), and that's always a big clue.

They're not my 'beloved heroes' either. The right people get things right and they're not one hit wonders every now and again. It's been proved time and again.

[segedunum]

Newey is basically in the same rle as Brawn....

No he isn't. Ross Brawn is Team Principal and he simply doesn't have the time to get heavily involved in development minutiae of any kind.

[andrew]

...
Brawn has a textbook career in F1 with a lot of titles .he for sure is not of the same calibre as Newey in terms of car design concepts but then ,who is?
...

For the umptenth time marcush, Ross Brawn was never an F1 designer per se, he's not even an engineer, Rory Byrne was with him all the way from Benetton to Ferrari. As "Technical director", he's a very competent organizer, but that's a whole different ballgame, he probaby wouldn't know where to begin if asked to design a Formula one car.

Well he's come a long since early the 1970s when he was taken on as a trainee engineer by the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority at its Atomic Energy Research Establishment in Harwell, Oxfordshire, where he studied instrumentation. Then onto working as a milling machine operator in 1976 for March Engineering. Basically he's worked his way up from the bottom. Sometimes a lot better than someone who has studied text books for 4 years and got some letters after their name.