2017-2020 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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godlameroso
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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bhall II wrote:
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by channeling vortices or unconditioned air flows. But, I'd just like to point out that managing sidepod air flow is an area of active development.

In a way, the more air flow you can route around the sidepods, the less you have to deal with the lift created by air flow over them...
What I meant was since the rear wing is exposed to the free air stream, it could produce most of its effect without much influence of the rest of the body save some diffuser/monkey seat interaction. Whereas the front wing elements coax or condition air downstream, parts downstream are fed vortices and flows induced up stream.

This year's lower rear wing may open up the possibility of more upstream interaction, including a greater coupling effect with the diffuser.

As for flows over the side pods, those seem to be free stream flows, or not influenced directly by the front wing, around and under is another story.

In other words the free streaming air only interacts directly with FW, upper side pods surface, and from 09 until 16 the rear wing, and even that is debatable given diffuser/beam wing/monkey seat interactions.
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rjsa
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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bhall II wrote:
rjsa wrote:You answered your own question: vortex lift happens when the aircraft is doing extreme 3D maneuvering - what causes the leading edge of the wing to operate at high AOAs. In a racing car that AOA vary by the pitch angle, and that's limited to a few degrees.
The scope for vortex lift isn't necessarily confined to transient events; that's just how it tends to apply to aircraft.

But, like I said, the delta wing example was a bad one. This is more closely aligned with my thoughts...
bhall II wrote:
Yasantha Pathirana wrote:Controlled Separated Flow or Leading Edge Vortex Flow. This is a half-way stage between steady streamline flow and unsteady flow described later. Due to boundary layer effects, generally at a sharp leading edge, the flow separates from the surface; the flow does not then break down into a turbulent chaotic condition but, instead, forms a strong vortex which, because of its stability and predictability, can be controlled and made to give a useful lift force. Such flows are found in swept and delta planforms particularly at the higher incidences.
http://i.imgur.com/BwVuiwF.jpg
Something else to consider is that AoA essentially just describes a pressure gradient. Given a strong Y250 vortex, for instance, you can create a useful pressure gradient without extreme AoA. The only question is whether or not the sweep angle will be sufficient to take advantage of it. If it is, the neutral center section of the wing can be rendered "neutral" in name only.

http://i.imgur.com/4sAtG0m.jpg

...or so goes my thought process.
I'm not talking transient. I'm talking high AOA from the delta shaped element. In the current F1 wing topology vortex lift could come in play from the second wing element (flap?) onwards. The main element would not benefit from it since it's plane is pretty much parallel to the traveling direction

bhall II
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Tommy Cookers wrote:there's no magic beans related to wing sweep, despite Mr Pathirana's blog
You point out the son of a bitch who called it magical, and we can beat the --- out of him together. :lol:
rjsa wrote:I'm not talking transient. I'm talking high AOA from the delta shaped element. In the current F1 wing topology vortex lift could come in play from the second wing element (flap?) onwards. The main element would not benefit from it since it's plane is pretty much parallel to the traveling direction
Even if the pressure gradient caused by the wing's AoA isn't itself conducive to vortex lift, the pressure gradient that exists between the neutral section and the non-neutral sections might be sufficient, meaning the AoA typical of modern raked cars might be enough to do the trick.

Picture something kindasorta like this on the underside of the wing...

Image

It occurs to me that we may very well be describing the same thing, but with different language. Even so, here's where I think we diverge (or where I haven't adequately explained myself): if the sweep angle allows for vortex lift, then the AoA of all non-neutral elements can theoretically be increased without increasing the risk of separation. It might even be possible to reduce the number of elements needed to sustain attached flow. Both changes could enable significant downforce gains.

Image
Blue elements mine; original image via Mathieu Horsky
godlameroso wrote:In other words the free streaming air only interacts directly with FW, upper side pods surface, and from 09 until 16 the rear wing, and even that is debatable given diffuser/beam wing/monkey seat interactions.
That's not the case. In fact, check out the post associated with the image above. Here's a brief excerpt...
In the original message I wrote: “The only geometric difference between these 2 models is a rear wing raised by 70mm on the lower picture compared to the bottom one, see how it affects the flow behind the front wing and therefore the air going over the front splitter, dramatically switching the balance towards the rear. I just wanted to point this out since people think things happening at the rear of the car don’t affect the front!”.

[...]

The difference is very clear here, the pressure over the splitter has dramatically been reduced at its front. Below are the numbers:
  • Overall downforce: +2.1%
  • Downforce on front axle: -9.8%
  • Downforce on rear axle: +11.6%
  • Drag: +3.0%
  • Balance (on front axle): -11.7%
It's not possible to change anything about a car's aerodynamics without it changing everything about the car's aerodynamics.

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godlameroso
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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I don't dispute that last bit at all. What I mean is airflow to the rear wing doesn't have to pass through vortex generators in the front wing like the sidepod undercut, or be fed airflow that spills over from the coke bottle shape like the top of the diffuser does. Obviously the same is true for the front wing, and top of the side pods. Although all this may change this year.

A car is more than the sum of it's parts, just like any good alloy.
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rjsa
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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bhall II wrote:
It occurs to me that we may very well be describing the same thing, but with different language. Even so, here's where I think we diverge (or where I haven't adequately explained myself): if the sweep angle allows for vortex lift, then the AoA of all non-neutral elements can theoretically be increased without increasing the risk of separation. It might even be possible to reduce the number of elements needed to sustain attached flow. Both changes could enable significant downforce gains.
Yes it allows, but it does not ensure it's efficient. For a long time wing geometry was not that restricted and solutions never converged towards delta shaped wings. There were a few, even my beloved BT-52, but it was never a trend and the main planes had very shallow AOAs on those cases. Multi element / high camber designs seem to bring greater efficiency than high AOA / delta shaped ones.

bhall II
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Given a choice between what I've proposed and a wing encumbered by neither a neutral center section nor a strictly defined sweep angle, and that could also be fitted to a chassis with a relatively low ride height, it's not at all certain that I'd select what I've proposed. So I can definitely understand why teams might transition away from such a layout or never even adopt it in the first place.

Image

This could be what's behind any miscommunication here...
Multi element / high camber designs seem to bring greater efficiency than high AOA...
I never really consider the front wing to be highly cambered. Right or wrong, it makes more sense to me to think of it as a collection of cambered elements arranged with progressively higher angles of attack, and it's something that always defines my frame of reference.
godlameroso wrote:A car is more than the sum of it's parts, just like any good alloy.
Maybe I'm just having trouble visualizing what you've described. (One of the reasons why I post so many images is that I often have to make them for myself.)

bhall II
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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I have no idea why this didn't occur to me sooner (bearing in mind that the yellow area I've drawn is meant to represent air flow under the wing)...

Image

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godlameroso
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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bhall II wrote:I have no idea why this didn't occur to me sooner (bearing in mind that the yellow area I've drawn is meant to represent air flow under the wing)...

http://i.imgur.com/7Cd59FQ.jpg
Ok now you have to let me in to what you're thinking because it's not obvious to me. At the leading edge?
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bhall II
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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I also have no idea why I can't seem to break the habit of assuming my thoughts are self-evident.

Just to make sure we're on the same page...

An aircraft experiences vortex lift when the AoA of a swept wing (or leading-edge extension) is increased to such a degree that the pressure differential between the high- and low-pressure sides is sufficient to pull air flow across the leading edge in the form of vortices (as opposed to the usual vortices that are typically shed from the trailing edge somewhere in the vicinity of the wingtips). These vortices keep air flow attached to the low-pressure surface. Without them, the pilot in the F-22 below would pull back on the stick to go vertical, and the aircraft would promptly fall out of the sky, because abrupt flow separation would stall the wings.

Image
"Somebody's probably gonna tell me that wouldn't happen. But there's no need to let a silly little thing like 'reality' get in the way of a tremendous point." —probably Donald Trump

Though triggered by increased AoA, the key factors are a high pressure differential to pull air flow from the high-pressure side to the low-pressure side, and a sweep angle that will allow such movement to occur across the wing's leading edge from the root instead of its trailing edge at the tip.

Does anything about McLaren's test wing strike you as being conducive to such flow?

Image

(I've not forgotten about the rest of the wing; I just don't want to go there yet.)
Last edited by bhall II on 26 Jan 2017, 08:03, edited 1 time in total.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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bhall II wrote: ......An aircraft experiences vortex lift when the AoA of a swept wing (or leading-edge extension) is increased to such a degree that the pressure differential between the high- and low-pressure sides is sufficient to pull air flow across the leading edge in the These vortices keep air flow attached to the low-pressure surface. Without them, the pilot in the F-22 below would pull back on the stick to go vertical, and the aircraft would promptly fall out of the sky, because abrupt flow separation would stall the wings.
"Somebody's probably gonna tell me that wouldn't happen. But there's no need to let something silly like 'reality' get in the way of a tremendous point." —probably Donald Trump
Though triggered by increased AoA, the key factors are a high pressure differential to pull air flow from the high-pressure side to the low-pressure side, and a sweep angle that will allow such movement to occur across the wing's leading edge from the root instead of its trailing edge at the tip.
reasons why 'it' wouldn't happen .........

a thinnish section that's (rather) symmetrical is likely to develop full span seperation near the LE with reattachment down-chord - the 'LE bubble'
(the blog seems to wrongly associate this with wing sweep)
ie there's a significant loss of Cl and increased or greatly increased Cd
but Cl doesn't collapse to the extent that textbooks (based on traditional/normal cambered asymmetricalish sections) have in mind
thousands of planes in service or manufacture eg prop commuter airliners are flying with these symmetricalish sections
'it' (Cl collapse) or otherwise non-collapse applies whether straight or swept planform (swept is famously worse of if 'it' happens - ie 'pitch-up')

low aspect ratio rather has anyway the same results as attributed to the LE (root) extensions
but LERX will more strongly make both wings behave the same despite wing:wing differences in AoA from likely factors eg included roll
and will better contain the stability and control issues wrt pitching and/or rolling moments
at high AoA the nose would shed alternating Karmann vortices as did the F-4 (nbg for weapons aim) but the LERX prevent these
so it's handy for the taxpayer
LERX seem for these purposes to have been designed into some straight wing planes eg the Britten-Norman prop 'flies like a jet' advanced trainer

our BAC Lightning could fly continuously at c 30deg AoA (4 min endurance on internal fuel at max thrust)
the X-33? programme lavishly featured 'post-stall manouvreing' that particularly interested the Germans


in short, having in continuous slow and level flight flown various aerobatic planes at AoA 45 - 55+ deg I know the Cl doesn't collapse

bhall II
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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See? I knew I could bank on a swift demonstration of Cunningham's Law.

The video clip isn't meant to be anything more than a handy way to visualize the relevant flow structures, and I think it works pretty well in that regard. It's clearly not a direct analog, if for no other reason than the simple fact that conventional airfoils and inverted, multi-element airfoils in ground effect are functionally dissimilar, e.g. the tip vortices that tend to be detrimental to conventional wings are highly beneficial to F1 front wings.

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Juzh
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Andy Green of FI said drag for next year is going up 5-10%, mainly from the wider tires.

According to Willem Toet a theoretical car with no downforce (but equal drag) is 21,46s slower round 82,18s lap of Barcelona. If you then cut the drag by 75% (as a result of having no wings and sorts), laptime gain is only 2s.
So a 75% decrease in drag is only worth 2s and predicted increase for next year is only 7.5% on average.

Are we to assume that after all, drag is actually not going to have much of an impact (on laptime anyway)? Or am I completely in the dark.

Image

shady
shady
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Juzh wrote:Andy Green of FI said drag for next year is going up 5-10%, mainly from the wider tires.

According to Willem Toet a theoretical car with no downforce (but equal drag) is 21,46s slower round 82,18s lap of Barcelona. If you then cut the drag by 75% (as a result of having no wings and sorts), laptime gain is only 2s.
So a 75% decrease in drag is only worth 2s and predicted increase for next year is only 7.5% on average.

Are we to assume that after all, drag is actually not going to have much of an impact (on laptime anyway)? Or am I completely in the dark.

https://i.imgur.com/cQuQHY1.jpg
All things equal it may have an affect on the top speed, but there will be several all new PUs as well so it will be difficult to tease out from this side of the season. But I think the top speeds will still be close 330 - 360+..

#armchair

mrluke
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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shady wrote:
Juzh wrote:Andy Green of FI said drag for next year is going up 5-10%, mainly from the wider tires.

According to Willem Toet a theoretical car with no downforce (but equal drag) is 21,46s slower round 82,18s lap of Barcelona. If you then cut the drag by 75% (as a result of having no wings and sorts), laptime gain is only 2s.
So a 75% decrease in drag is only worth 2s and predicted increase for next year is only 7.5% on average.

Are we to assume that after all, drag is actually not going to have much of an impact (on laptime anyway)? Or am I completely in the dark.

https://i.imgur.com/cQuQHY1.jpg
All things equal it may have an affect on the top speed, but there will be several all new PUs as well so it will be difficult to tease out from this side of the season. But I think the top speeds will still be close 330 - 360+..

#armchair
330 to 360? That is a HUGE range with regard to top speed.

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godlameroso
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Force India did state they're bringing 10 different wings throughout the season. Maybe we'll see special low downforce packages for certain races.
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