2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

[Manoah2u]

Considering the rear wing not being returned to Mercedes yet and RBR’s request for information on Mercedes’ new flexing rear wing, which is why they were measured for so many cars after qualifying in the first place, makes me think we may see a new directive and measurement method for the final two races.

Something is up, you don’t suddenly get that kind of speed from a fresh same spec engine. Smart to do it towards end season as there is very limited time to do something still.

You do when that engine is a) never used to it's 100%.
There are 3 engines meant to be used for 21 races.
Mercedes have used 3 engines for let's say 17 races, and now essentially have 2 new engines for Lewis for the remaining 4 races. thats 1 engine for every 2 races, whilst the former 3 engines each had to do 5 1/2 races.

flatly said, that means that lewis new engines get 3 times less stressed for each race to do the same, or you could theoretically abuse the engine 3 times more than during all season.
Now obviously, the engine can't be put 3 times more powerfull. However, you could argue that the Mercedes engines during the past 16 races were running at let's say 90% of their full capacity, and for the remaining 4 races (including Brazil) they're gonna get 100% used. That means ideally, Lewis' engine MUST fail to finish a meter more than reaching the pits after the finish flag goes down in the final race.

In other words, Mercedes have been 'sandbagging' untill now - to put it crude. I don't think that's the case however, but it is still easy to defend a 'sudden' leap in performance.

ALSO, let's not forget the suspension 'gimmick'. I have no idea when they introduced this, but if it's really something of recent or that they have managed to 100% master only in the past few sessions, then let's say they were also using 90% of that potential and now 100%.

Essentially, that means they have gained a 20% performance benefit for the last 4 GP's compared to the previous 17.

Meaning something doesn't have to be up at all, it's just that RBR could be sour that they have no answer to this and that theoretically the title still can slip away at the last moment.

And it's going to be gloves off now. RB can complain all the want about supposedly 'illegal' Mercedes tricks, but RB is no saint there either and likely is also running some things that are questionable outside of the tests the FIA uses. If Mercedes finds a way to expose something, they will - and now more than ever.

And yes, all it takes is Max to have a DNF during the Brazil main GP, and then Lewis to finish P1 (if Bottas is P1, and Lewis P2, he'll let him pass) then Lewis will be leading with 4 points. 5 if he also snatches fastest lap.
If Lewis finishes P2 and Perez P1, and Lewis gets fastest lap, that'll be a 2 point lead for Max.

Don't get me wrong, i don't want a DNF for Max at all. He has been driving great and doesn't deserve a DNF at all.
It does show how things could still swing around. But then, whilst Lewis' chances are already as good as zero if Max wins this GP, if Lewis gets a DNF it's 100% done and dusted, so that swings both ways to be fair.

[Laserguru]

Where is this fabled 0.2mm actually coming from? Seems like someone just made it up and now everyone is happy to play along.

The stewards report makes no mention of it, only that it failed to achieve the required 10N at one spot. In fact, it is established within the report that the static measurement with no load applied is in within the 85mm requirement.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... %20DRS.pdf

Mercedes themselves
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/merce ... m/6778716/

Again, i point out the following, which does not get looked after enough.
RedBull filed the complaint, to which the FIA investigated and discovered the flaw.
The flaw is 0.2 MM. that is 0,24% difference, not even 1 %.
Media claims RB went to the FIA with a shitload of documentation about this difference.
HOW.

RBR did not file a complaint but asked the FIA for clarification on Friday regarding Mercedes’ new flex wing.

FIA measured a bunch of cars after qualifying to verify the rear wing according to the directives and by accident found the 0.2mm. The flexing is also why Max touched Lewis’ rear wing "Well, I was clearly looking at the wing," admitted Verstappen. "So, yeah, I mean, you can see on the video what I did exactly. I was just looking at how much the rear wing was flexing at that point." Not that touching makes sense considering it only seems to flex under load exceeding the current directives. Any other narative I’d like to see the quotes cause I can’t find them. As I understand RBR now “understands” how the flexiwing works wing. "It's something that is enabling the car to do that kind of speed," "Something must happen, because physics wouldn't allow....” "The kind of horsepower delta that you would need to achieve that, would be pretty significant. So we're obviously trying to understand what it is and go from there." “So it is something we will keep an eye on because particularly with Lewis, that was just in a different league. He was 27 kilometres per hour faster than Lando [Norris] when he passed him, which is another Formula.”. Supposedly the FIA will understand it soon too, they kept the rear wing, and issue new directives, simply forbid Mercedes to race the wing or do nothing at all.

Oscillating rear wing is not illegal to my knowledge, unless propelling the car. Feel free to check the regulations on this.

[N21]

Sorry, it was footage from scrutineering after quali., my bad. Could have been damage or wear after all.

Link to the video I was referring to:

Yea, I'm sure all the teams are using something ridiculously light and easy to wear out like a nylon bushing.

I'm sure they are all custom machined to close tolerances but, still really easy to wear out.

Well this is actually what they use for those tests…

[Sieper]

Considering the rear wing not being returned to Mercedes yet and RBR’s request for information on Mercedes’ new flexing rear wing, which is why they were measured for so many cars after qualifying in the first place, makes me think we may see a new directive and measurement method for the final two races.

Something is up, you don’t suddenly get that kind of speed from a fresh same spec engine. Smart to do it towards end season as there is very limited time to do something still.

You do when that engine is a) never used to it's 100%.
There are 3 engines meant to be used for 21 races.
Mercedes have used 3 engines for let's say 17 races, and now essentially have 2 new engines for Lewis for the remaining 4 races. thats 1 engine for every 2 races, whilst the former 3 engines each had to do 5 1/2 races.

flatly said, that means that lewis new engines get 3 times less stressed for each race to do the same, or you could theoretically abuse the engine 3 times more than during all season.
Now obviously, the engine can't be put 3 times more powerfull. However, you could argue that the Mercedes engines during the past 16 races were running at let's say 90% of their full capacity, and for the remaining 4 races (including Brazil) they're gonna get 100% used. That means ideally, Lewis' engine MUST fail to finish a meter more than reaching the pits after the finish flag goes down in the final race.

In other words, Mercedes have been 'sandbagging' untill now - to put it crude. I don't think that's the case however, but it is still easy to defend a 'sudden' leap in performance.

ALSO, let's not forget the suspension 'gimmick'. I have no idea when they introduced this, but if it's really something of recent or that they have managed to 100% master only in the past few sessions, then let's say they were also using 90% of that potential and now 100%.

Essentially, that means they have gained a 20% performance benefit for the last 4 GP's compared to the previous 17.

Meaning something doesn't have to be up at all, it's just that RBR could be sour that they have no answer to this and that theoretically the title still can slip away at the last moment.

And it's going to be gloves off now. RB can complain all the want about supposedly 'illegal' Mercedes tricks, but RB is no saint there either and likely is also running some things that are questionable outside of the tests the FIA uses. If Mercedes finds a way to expose something, they will - and now more than ever.

And yes, all it takes is Max to have a DNF during the Brazil main GP, and then Lewis to finish P1 (if Bottas is P1, and Lewis P2, he'll let him pass) then Lewis will be leading with 4 points. 5 if he also snatches fastest lap.
If Lewis finishes P2 and Perez P1, and Lewis gets fastest lap, that'll be a 2 point lead for Max.

Don't get me wrong, i don't want a DNF for Max at all. He has been driving great and doesn't deserve a DNF at all.
It does show how things could still swing around. But then, whilst Lewis' chances are already as good as zero if Max wins this GP, if Lewis gets a DNF it's 100% done and dusted, so that swings both ways to be fair.

“Supposedly illegal”. Ok.

DNF for Max talk, and don’t get me wrong. Ok.suppose I won’t then. But you are the tenth guy in this thread talking about it. Useless.

[Magicsenna_41]

Great drive from Lewis.
But guys stop the hype.
Today with more fuel, track temp and more awareness of the drivers in the Top10 it will not be the same.
I expect Max finish 1st, follows Bottas and Perez. Hamilton 4th.

[langedweil]

“Supposedly illegal”. Ok.

DNF for Max talk, and don’t get me wrong. Ok.suppose I won’t then. But you are the tenth guy in this thread talking about it. Useless.

Siep, even racism was thrown in last night .. thou shallt not bother, it's just the darkside of a tsunami of irrelevant public opinions these days. There is no more dialogue, just monologues by people that often even can't spell their surname correctly.

[Starkblood80]

Mercedes themselves
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/merce ... m/6778716/

Again, i point out the following, which does not get looked after enough.
RedBull filed the complaint, to which the FIA investigated and discovered the flaw.
The flaw is 0.2 MM. that is 0,24% difference, not even 1 %.
Media claims RB went to the FIA with a shitload of documentation about this difference.
HOW.

RBR did not file a complaint but asked the FIA for clarification on Friday regarding Mercedes’ new flex wing.

FIA measured a bunch of cars after qualifying to verify the rear wing according to the directives and by accident found the 0.2mm. The flexing is also why Max touched Lewis’ rear wing. Not that touching makes sense considering it only seems to flex under load exceeding the current directives. Any other narative I’d like to see the quotes cause I can’t find them. As I understand RBR now understands how the flexiwing works “So it is something we will keep an eye on because particularly with Lewis, that was just in a different league. He was 27 kilometres per hour faster than Lando [Norris] when he passed him, which is another Formula.”, and soon the FIA will do too.

Oscillating rear wing is not illegal to my knowledge, unless propelling the car. Feel free to check the regulations on this.

Someone at least gets it. So many people are confusing the 2 situations and assuming they are the same thing.
Has anyone seen this Mercedes rear wing flex Redbull are asking clarification for?

[politburo]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... gpHfS.html





It was even more of a bloodbath than I initially thought. Merc F1 Team and Hamilton are truly the standard in driver+car combination.

Alfa Romeo race after race have a fast car on the straights but everywhere else leaves a lot to be desired. Maybe they'll fix that aspect of the machinery once Bottas is there.

[politburo]

Any predictions for the final classified anyone?. We all know ho will be last but the midfield is interesting with Ocon vs Gasly vs Vettel.

[djones]

One thing I did notice yesterday was how high Hamilton's engine was revving behind cars that had DRS.

Not sure I've ever heard one so high in the hybrid era and if it's the same today I do wonder if that will damage the engine.

[AeroDynamic]

I’m pretty sure the ‘legal’ illegally gaining RB wing helped RB gain a lot more advantage over the season in terms of pts than 0.2mm advantage MCS had in qualifying on Friday

Why do you put legal between punctuation marks? It was legal until the FIA changed the rules.
The situation was similar to when you would go driving after drinking one beer, legally, then get held up by the police, and get fined because the government decided to suddenly change the drinking limit to half a beer in the time between you leaving the pub and being held up.

You're twisting things. The FIA never changed 'the rules' they changed the tests that were in place to protect the sport and its competitors from any teams breaking the rules.

The wing passed the tests that were designed to prevent wings doing what the RB wing was doing, but it succesfully circumvented those tests so it could be declared 'legal' but, in practice, it didn't abide by the rules at all. So they changed the tests not rewrote the rules.

This is exactly what Ferrari did with its engine; it circumvented the FIA montiors/tests that were in place to prevent the engine behaving the way it was, so that they could make the engine do things the rules said you could not do. Do you feel the FIA changed the 'rules' Ferrari were following?

It's not like they said "hey your wings may bend this much" and changed how much it may bend. They were never supposed to bend that much in the first place.

[ringo]

Yes they are putting the engine through more revs. This is good for ERS charging.

What I agree with is that today is a new day and the track will come to Redbull. They dont magically forget how to setup their cars for their dominant tracks as we saw in Mexico.
So a DNF is Hamilton's only hope. Max will pass Bottas in the pits. And I am not wishing bad luck on max, I know his fans are ready to pounce, but I am being realistic.
Hamilton can also suffer a first corner accident and that's the end of his championship run.

What interest me the most is how will Bottas drive. Will he let Max waltz right past him, and if Hamilton is in P-2 and he is in P-1, will he step aside and give Lewis the win?

[NathanOlder]

So yesterday we had air temp of 17'C, today I am reading it will be 23'C. So not too different, I thought it was looking like it could be nearly double the temp from yesterday, around 30'c

I guess the track temp has potential to be much higher with it being earlier in the day.

[Wouter]

[search]

So yesterday we had air temp of 17'C, today I am reading it will be 23'C. So not too different, I thought it was looking like it could be nearly double the temp from yesterday, around 30'c

I guess the track temp has potential to be much higher with it being earlier in the day.

around 50°C, accrding to Fabrega, yeah. Yesterday it was 37°C before the start of the sprint.

Personally, this year I haven't really seen much of the alleged advantage Red Bull is supposed to have in warmer conditions, though.