2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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LionsHeart
LionsHeart
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 12:48
Emag wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 05:25
mwillems wrote:
24 Mar 2024, 23:29


It depends which stint you look at, on the hards we lose time at both corners unfortunately, which laps/tyres were you looking at on your analysis?

Going back and looking at the softs and your right, the final corner was OK, not great, not bad and we were being punished universally on the penultimate. Either the tyres or the lighter car allowed us to perform better on the final corner on the softs in the final stint. I would guess that the issue at the front affects the car up to and including mid speed corners, but with the effect greater the slower we are. On the laps below we are .35 to nearly half a second down. The final corner isn't so bad in itself, it is the effect it has up till the start line which is where we start to get parity with the Ferrari.

I didn't post the throttle but it isn't flat out with fuel in the tank, it's about 60% throttle for the bulk of the corner, 80% as the exit starts and then it hits 100% shortly after. 165kph at the apex followed by a lengthy stint of suffering from a slower exit.

https://i.ibb.co/H4SbZjw/Aus-FInal-Corners2.png

I'd love to know how much these cars weigh.

Edit: It is weight. The heavier car suffers in the long mid speed corner as it doesn't have the downforce to drag all the fuel round the corner. This is a snippet from 3 laps of stint 1 where we are 10kph down at the apex and actually slower in the final turn than the penultimate. Looking at the laptimes relative to LEC and SAI, we do indeed improve relative to our competitors as the race progresses. This will be a phenomenon specific to long mid speed corners with a heavier tank.

https://i.ibb.co/zr6rS7K/Aus-FInal-Corn ... -Stint.png

Final Edit: And now thinking back to Bahrain, the corner that they both hated, was like going round on three wheels and is not dissimilar to the final corner her at Australia, was the final corner at Bahrain.
Not sure which lap it was specifically. But I purposefully picked one that was in the last 10-15 laps of the race since both would be pushing at that stage with clear air in front.
It's a good point.

I had to just add lap counts and convert distance to front in meters to seconds in the telemetry to figure out if there was an issue with dirty air. Through luck, the laps I selected in the first stint were at least 5 seconds behind the driver in front. I think typically you feel the difference at 3 seconds so they are probably representative.

In the middle sector, lap 29 was also a way off any drivers and is a tenth better than the other laps, but 27 and 28 would have been affected being about 2 seconds away, and the data does indeed look worse for those laps.

Looking at laps 29,30 and 31 is a better picture and we are losing .19 to .25 in the final corner also, but you can see the laptime loss easing off here, still not far off the loss in the penultimate corner but it is getting better, especially when you look at a range of Carlos laps in that final corner, it drops to a slightly lower loss.

So I still feel that there is an issue with lugging fuel around mid speed corners below 180 kph due to aero that will get better as the race progresses, but you are right in that the issues at the long slow speeds are immutable.
I listened to Lando's racing radio. In the first stint he was unhappy with the weak pace caused by worn tyres. Moreover, he noted that he loses a lot of time in slow corners.

One comrade wrote above that the team should have completed the race with one pit stop. I can't imagine how this is possible. All teams saved two sets of hard for the race. They also quickly got rid of soft and medium tires, because the pace was rapidly dropping. And only the hard tire sets were stable and fast over the race distance.

People also wrote that perhaps Lando should have been called into the pits earlier to prevent Leclerc from missing out. But in this case, Lando would have gotten caught in traffic, and our car had trouble overtaking. Lando also noted this on the radio, saying that he did not want to get caught in traffic. What the team did may look conservative, but there was the most favorable and reasonable option.

In fact, the team will have to solve the problem in slow corners and then they can consistently claim the podium. And increasing the efficiency of DRS is not so critical, because it does not directly affect tire wear. By the way, Lando also noted during the race that the front left tire was running out quickly. This happened during the first stint on medium tyres.

Having rewatched the race three times, I have so far drawn the following conclusions: on medium C4 tires, Ferrari drives consistently fast and takes better care of them. On hard C3 tires, McLaren drives consistently fast and goes either at the pace of Ferrari or a little faster, and Ferrari, in turn, loses efficiency faster on C3 tires.
Last edited by LionsHeart on 25 Mar 2024, 18:47, edited 1 time in total.

FittingMechanics
FittingMechanics
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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To my eye it looked like McLaren had better (relative) pace with less fuel in the car and Ferrari the opposite.

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mwillems
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Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Yes that is the case from what I can see. We seem to struggle always in lower speed corners, but also lose time in mid speed corners with a fuller tank, as these situations also lack a little DF to drag a fat car around. As the car begins to lighten, this stops being an issue.
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mwillems
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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LionsHeart wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 15:09


I listened to Lando's racing radio. In the first stint he was unhappy with the weak pace caused by worn tyres. Moreover, he noted that he loses a lot of time in slow corners.

One comrade wrote above that the team should have completed the race with one pit stop. I can't imagine how this is possible. All teams saved two sets of hard for the race. They also quickly got rid of soft and medium tires, because the pace was rapidly dropping. And only the hard tire sets were stable and fast over the race distance.

People also wrote that perhaps Lando should have been called into the pits earlier to prevent Leclerc from missing out. But in this case, Lando would have gotten caught in traffic, and our car had trouble overtaking. Lando also noted this on the radio, saying that he did not want to get caught in traffic. What the team did may look conservative, but there was the most favorable and reasonable option.

In fact, the team will have to solve the problem in slow corners and then they can consistently claim the podium. And increasing the efficiency of DRS is not so critical, because it does not directly affect tire wear. By the way, Lando also noted during the race that the front left tire was running out quickly. This happened during the first stint on medium tyres.

Having rewatched the race three times, I have so far drawn the following conclusions: on medium C4 tires, Ferrari drives consistently fast and takes better care of them. On hard C3 tires, McLaren drives consistently fast and goes either at the pace of Ferrari or a little faster, and Ferrari, in turn, loses efficiency faster on C3 tires.
Yeah I made those points also but it would have got lost in all the post race analysis :D
Stopping early isn't clever if you can't get through traffic.

Agree that fixing slow corners will help, it will also help the mid speed corners and given that these corners will dominate the exit to the straights, it will certainly help straight line speed. We were hindered for the first 60% of the race on the start finish straight, and this is part of the straight line speed issue in 2 of the 3 races. Corner exits.

DRS efficiency is without a doubt an issue, but it isn't the main issue.

Well, I figured out how the XY Axis on the race telemetry works and now I know how to calculate where the start/finish line is!

By the way, I looked at gearing, it is largely identical per car and has been since at least last year, it will not be a reason in performance differences between cars. I think SmallSoldier was suggesting that it would be, so it is more for him.
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mwillems
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Stella saying that the strategy chosen was the right one, in part also down to the uncertainty over the hard tyres, as well as the reasons we suggested above.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/stel ... /10591556/

"Leclerc finished ahead of Lando because they have a faster car at the moment," said Stella.

"The positive news is that this faster car is not faster by much at all. We were very close, which I think is encouraging for Japan in which some of the characteristics that make Australia good for us take another step further in having a higher ratio of medium-high-speed [corners] compared to low-speed."

On the decision to swap Piastri behind Norris at the former's home race, Stella explained: "I would say that swap wasn't even strategic. That was executional.

"The swap would have happened naturally because Lando had much fresher tyres… We called the swap to avoid that this comes to unnecessary racing …

"But despite having fresher tyres, actually, we didn't catch Leclerc enough. This is why I'm saying Ferrari were quick today."
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Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 18:55
LionsHeart wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 15:09


I listened to Lando's racing radio. In the first stint he was unhappy with the weak pace caused by worn tyres. Moreover, he noted that he loses a lot of time in slow corners.

One comrade wrote above that the team should have completed the race with one pit stop. I can't imagine how this is possible. All teams saved two sets of hard for the race. They also quickly got rid of soft and medium tires, because the pace was rapidly dropping. And only the hard tire sets were stable and fast over the race distance.

People also wrote that perhaps Lando should have been called into the pits earlier to prevent Leclerc from missing out. But in this case, Lando would have gotten caught in traffic, and our car had trouble overtaking. Lando also noted this on the radio, saying that he did not want to get caught in traffic. What the team did may look conservative, but there was the most favorable and reasonable option.

In fact, the team will have to solve the problem in slow corners and then they can consistently claim the podium. And increasing the efficiency of DRS is not so critical, because it does not directly affect tire wear. By the way, Lando also noted during the race that the front left tire was running out quickly. This happened during the first stint on medium tyres.

Having rewatched the race three times, I have so far drawn the following conclusions: on medium C4 tires, Ferrari drives consistently fast and takes better care of them. On hard C3 tires, McLaren drives consistently fast and goes either at the pace of Ferrari or a little faster, and Ferrari, in turn, loses efficiency faster on C3 tires.
Yeah I made those points also but it would have got lost in all the post race analysis :D
Stopping early isn't clever if you can't get through traffic.

Agree that fixing slow corners will help, it will also help the mid speed corners and given that these corners will dominate the exit to the straights, it will certainly help straight line speed. We were hindered for the first 60% of the race on the start finish straight, and this is part of the straight line speed issue in 2 of the 3 races. Corner exits.

DRS efficiency is without a doubt an issue, but it isn't the main issue.

Well, I figured out how the XY Axis on the race telemetry works and now I know how to calculate where the start/finish line is!

By the way, I looked at gearing, it is largely identical per car and has been since at least last year, it will not be a reason in performance differences between cars. I think SmallSoldier was suggesting that it would be, so it is more for him.
Surprised that gearing is the same for all cars… But if the data shows it, it might be the case… Gearing should be picked based on PU characteristics (torque delivery, power, battery deployment), as well as the car characteristics (drag, efficiency)… That’s why it’s surprising that gearing is matched among cars with different PU’s and car characteristics

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mwillems
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Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 20:20
mwillems wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 18:55
LionsHeart wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 15:09


I listened to Lando's racing radio. In the first stint he was unhappy with the weak pace caused by worn tyres. Moreover, he noted that he loses a lot of time in slow corners.

One comrade wrote above that the team should have completed the race with one pit stop. I can't imagine how this is possible. All teams saved two sets of hard for the race. They also quickly got rid of soft and medium tires, because the pace was rapidly dropping. And only the hard tire sets were stable and fast over the race distance.

People also wrote that perhaps Lando should have been called into the pits earlier to prevent Leclerc from missing out. But in this case, Lando would have gotten caught in traffic, and our car had trouble overtaking. Lando also noted this on the radio, saying that he did not want to get caught in traffic. What the team did may look conservative, but there was the most favorable and reasonable option.

In fact, the team will have to solve the problem in slow corners and then they can consistently claim the podium. And increasing the efficiency of DRS is not so critical, because it does not directly affect tire wear. By the way, Lando also noted during the race that the front left tire was running out quickly. This happened during the first stint on medium tyres.

Having rewatched the race three times, I have so far drawn the following conclusions: on medium C4 tires, Ferrari drives consistently fast and takes better care of them. On hard C3 tires, McLaren drives consistently fast and goes either at the pace of Ferrari or a little faster, and Ferrari, in turn, loses efficiency faster on C3 tires.
Yeah I made those points also but it would have got lost in all the post race analysis :D
Stopping early isn't clever if you can't get through traffic.

Agree that fixing slow corners will help, it will also help the mid speed corners and given that these corners will dominate the exit to the straights, it will certainly help straight line speed. We were hindered for the first 60% of the race on the start finish straight, and this is part of the straight line speed issue in 2 of the 3 races. Corner exits.

DRS efficiency is without a doubt an issue, but it isn't the main issue.

Well, I figured out how the XY Axis on the race telemetry works and now I know how to calculate where the start/finish line is!

By the way, I looked at gearing, it is largely identical per car and has been since at least last year, it will not be a reason in performance differences between cars. I think SmallSoldier was suggesting that it would be, so it is more for him.
Surprised that gearing is the same for all cars… But if the data shows it, it might be the case… Gearing should be picked based on PU characteristics (torque delivery, power, battery deployment), as well as the car characteristics (drag, efficiency)… That’s why it’s surprising that gearing is matched among cars with different PU’s and car characteristics
Hollus moved the post to its own thread and confirmed the same historical point of view. Makes sense since the engines are very closely matched. Drag will be another factor but the relative differences won't make that much of a difference. The differences are relatively small even in KPH between the teams and where they upshift. There are curious differences between Lando and Oscar in 1st though, same as there are between LEC and SAI in 1st and 2nd gear, with Oscar and Sainz upshifting later. Feel free to post to the 2024 gearing thread if you want any data on it.
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
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Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 20:27
SmallSoldier wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 20:20
mwillems wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 18:55


Yeah I made those points also but it would have got lost in all the post race analysis :D
Stopping early isn't clever if you can't get through traffic.

Agree that fixing slow corners will help, it will also help the mid speed corners and given that these corners will dominate the exit to the straights, it will certainly help straight line speed. We were hindered for the first 60% of the race on the start finish straight, and this is part of the straight line speed issue in 2 of the 3 races. Corner exits.

DRS efficiency is without a doubt an issue, but it isn't the main issue.

Well, I figured out how the XY Axis on the race telemetry works and now I know how to calculate where the start/finish line is!

By the way, I looked at gearing, it is largely identical per car and has been since at least last year, it will not be a reason in performance differences between cars. I think SmallSoldier was suggesting that it would be, so it is more for him.
Surprised that gearing is the same for all cars… But if the data shows it, it might be the case… Gearing should be picked based on PU characteristics (torque delivery, power, battery deployment), as well as the car characteristics (drag, efficiency)… That’s why it’s surprising that gearing is matched among cars with different PU’s and car characteristics
Hollus moved the post to its own thread and confirmed the same historical point of view. Makes sense since the engines are very closely matched. Drag will be another factor but the relative differences won't make that much of a difference. The differences are relatively small even in KPH between the teams and where they upshift. There are curious differences between Lando and Oscar in 1st though, same as there are between LEC and SAI in 1st and 2nd gear, with Oscar and Sainz upshifting later. Feel free to post to the 2024 gearing thread if you want any data on it.
I mean… Lando and Oscar should have exactly the same gearing… But surprised that McLaren and Ferrari for example would have the same… It’s interesting, will take a look at the post

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Juzh
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Norris Q3 lap 1.16.315

https://streamable.com/vbat3e

Szabi1112
Szabi1112
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Joined: 25 Mar 2018, 08:50

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 21:28
Norris Q3 lap 1.16.315

https://streamable.com/vbat3e
I think it's quite good lap. I didn't see any big mistake.

CHT
CHT
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Mclaren is now a Bahraini team. Aramco will acquire Aston Martins next I guess?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusi ... r-BB1kwKAu

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proteus
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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CHT wrote:
26 Mar 2024, 14:42
Mclaren is now a Bahraini team. Aramco will acquire Aston Martins next I guess?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusi ... r-BB1kwKAu
I really dont know how to feel about that. If they only sign checks and allow competent people to lead the team, it should do ok. But if they take over, then it will be a problem.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

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mwillems
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 20:51
mwillems wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 20:27
SmallSoldier wrote:
25 Mar 2024, 20:20


Surprised that gearing is the same for all cars… But if the data shows it, it might be the case… Gearing should be picked based on PU characteristics (torque delivery, power, battery deployment), as well as the car characteristics (drag, efficiency)… That’s why it’s surprising that gearing is matched among cars with different PU’s and car characteristics
Hollus moved the post to its own thread and confirmed the same historical point of view. Makes sense since the engines are very closely matched. Drag will be another factor but the relative differences won't make that much of a difference. The differences are relatively small even in KPH between the teams and where they upshift. There are curious differences between Lando and Oscar in 1st though, same as there are between LEC and SAI in 1st and 2nd gear, with Oscar and Sainz upshifting later. Feel free to post to the 2024 gearing thread if you want any data on it.
I mean… Lando and Oscar should have exactly the same gearing… But surprised that McLaren and Ferrari for example would have the same… It’s interesting, will take a look at the post
It's not exactly the same. Just not a differentiator. I'll see if I can produce the graphs that were used last year to visualise it.
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Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Macafangrskg
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Mumtalakat started with 15% on 2007.Then they added another 15% on 2010 after the Mercedes exodus. Then with the injection of cash to the team. Another 15% added by the exodus of Ron Denis on 2016.2018 and 2022 added more stocks and gained 60% of the company.
They have a clear path for the Mclaren Group not just f1.They want to invest , start winning everywhere also put the road division back to black and then float the Mclaren Group to IPO.
We are hearing about possible IPO for the past 2 years

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mwillems
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Re: 2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

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Mumtalaket already own 100% of the group.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a6028 ... ip-change/

I doubt we'll be going to IPO, the group is struggling to stay liquid. The racing company is insulated from it all though.
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.