2023 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 30 - July 02

[f1jcw]

The document

https://i.imgur.com/23atELc.jpeg

The Stewards very strongly recommend that a solution be found to the track limits situation at this circuit.

How did Lando never get picked up?

[Cuky]

How can they hand out penalties when they didn’t even give a warning to a driver about his offense?

IMHO drivers were warned about laps being deleted for going wide and if they can navigate tracks (including street circuits) with millimeter precision then I say they are fully aware of instances when they go wide. And they saw it happening in qualifying, in sprint and in feeder series and they knew quite well that all they had to do is stay within white lines. And yet they didn't.

On the other hand, as far as I am concerned F1 lacks clear guidance on track limits. Yes, rules define what is and isn't considered to be part of the track, but over the years F1 has been policing those limits inconsistently and only on some corners. They should write it in the rules so that it is clear that any excursion off track, except in cases where someone pushes you out or you spin out or you get out on the gravel/grass and loose a ton of time, would be counted towards drivers' tally and after certain amount of excursions they get a final warning and then a pre-defined penalty which is the same for everyone who deserves it and is not left out for stewards discretion.

It needs to be a Black and White flag or they break their own rules.

Or is it another "You must live within the letter of the law but we can make the law up as we go along" ruling?

I'm sure I've seen something like that before in recent years

Does it say in the rules that drivers have to be warned with black and white flag before they get a penalty? I really do not know and is now a bit late in the day for me to go reading through the sporting regulations.

But even then, those are penalties that were awarded after the race. And so far in my watching of F1 there was never a case that I can remember that a penalty was awarded after the race that was annulled because there was no warnings issued during the race.

But the process of how penalties are awarded sure could use some bringing up to speed with times we live in. Both FIA and teams are gathering so much data during every single lap and yet something that is as simple as "did you or did you not leave the race track" is first needed to be reported to the stewards who then watch replays and then decide on a penalty instead of having sensors embedded around the whole track inside the white line and detecting offenses automatically. And they should really get rid of that "did he gain an advantage?" thing that is so often brought up. Rules describe what constitutes as a race track, rules prohibit leaving the track without a valid reason and so it should be as black and white as possible.

Though it must be said that the situation is better than what it was some 5-10 years ago when on the same track you could get more than a cars width wide without receiving a penalty, while at the next corner being just a millimeter out warranted action from stewards. But it could be so much more if terms would be clearly written into sporting regulations and stewards would adhere to the letter of the regulations.

[mwillems]

IMHO drivers were warned about laps being deleted for going wide and if they can navigate tracks (including street circuits) with millimeter precision then I say they are fully aware of instances when they go wide. And they saw it happening in qualifying, in sprint and in feeder series and they knew quite well that all they had to do is stay within white lines. And yet they didn't.

On the other hand, as far as I am concerned F1 lacks clear guidance on track limits. Yes, rules define what is and isn't considered to be part of the track, but over the years F1 has been policing those limits inconsistently and only on some corners. They should write it in the rules so that it is clear that any excursion off track, except in cases where someone pushes you out or you spin out or you get out on the gravel/grass and loose a ton of time, would be counted towards drivers' tally and after certain amount of excursions they get a final warning and then a pre-defined penalty which is the same for everyone who deserves it and is not left out for stewards discretion.

It needs to be a Black and White flag or they break their own rules.

Or is it another "You must live within the letter of the law but we can make the law up as we go along" ruling?

I'm sure I've seen something like that before in recent years

Does it say in the rules that drivers have to be warned with black and white flag before they get a penalty? I really do not know and is now a bit late in the day for me to go reading through the sporting regulations.

But even then, those are penalties that were awarded after the race. And so far in my watching of F1 there was never a case that I can remember that a penalty was awarded after the race that was annulled because there was no warnings issued during the race.

But the process of how penalties are awarded sure could use some bringing up to speed with times we live in. Both FIA and teams are gathering so much data during every single lap and yet something that is as simple as "did you or did you not leave the race track" is first needed to be reported to the stewards who then watch replays and then decide on a penalty instead of having sensors embedded around the whole track inside the white line and detecting offenses automatically. And they should really get rid of that "did he gain an advantage?" thing that is so often brought up. Rules describe what constitutes as a race track, rules prohibit leaving the track without a valid reason and so it should be as black and white as possible.

Though it must be said that the situation is better than what it was some 5-10 years ago when on the same track you could get more than a cars width wide without receiving a penalty, while at the next corner being just a millimeter out warranted action from stewards. But it could be so much more if terms would be clearly written into sporting regulations and stewards would adhere to the letter of the regulations.

I need to look tomorrow but my understanding is they are exoected to Black and White flag first for this. The rules made this way to give fair warning.

At best it is outside the spirit of the rules and unfair.

But at the end of the day we know there are lines in the regulations that give stewards power to ignore their own rules.

[Sieper]

I am correct that at these sprint weekends 33+1=max score?

[organic]

I am correct that at these sprint weekends 33+1=max score?

Yes. Max has had the max score at a sprint weekend once before - imola '22 - but the maximum points total available has now risen to 34

[Sieper]

And it are his start numbers

[Zynerji]

I find Ocon the most unlikeable driver I’ve come across in many years of watching f1. I take no pleasure in having that opinion but I just find him very hard to warm to for some reason

That's George Russell for me... just fake af

[vorticism]

Penalties aside. Sainz vs. Perez was good, yes? Big wing flex at 5:54.

Football needs to bring its VAR cameras or the ones you see in tennis or cricket which can get decisions quickly

so you're in here somewhere?

[CaribouBread]

I enjoy the drivers being mandated to drive within the white lines, its a feat of speed and precision! But what's the point in such mandates if they cannot enforce it in any meaningful way? Leaves a sour taste.
They either need some flexibility in the rules regarding problematic tracks, say extend the track limits to the outside of the kerbs, or if they want to keep the hardline approach they need to trial and invest heavily in immediate and reliable monitoring approaches! There are low tech approaches and high tech approaches to this and it doesn't have to be hard and fast either way. For example I do not see why they couldn't do something like bolt on astroturf as a temporary "low tech"/'dumb' measure.
Even if they somehow figure out how to line every track and every corner with grass, I think the onus is on the sporting body to invest in technology to make monitoring fast and reliable.

[bluechris]

[DDopey]

Is not a big part of the problem that all 4 need to be over the white line. I have seen plenty of situations where it is hard to judge when both front and rear are over the line at that speed. Wouldn’t a simple solution be none of the track side tyres may go over the white line ? ( with maybe a good definition of track side tyres, but you get the point). This way it will be far easier and faster to judge.

[basti313]

I need to look tomorrow but my understanding is they are exoected to Black and White flag first for this. The rules made this way to give fair warning.

At best it is outside the spirit of the rules and unfair.

No. They are not allowed to go over the lines, not a single time. The warnings are completely optional.
We saw examples where it was completely ridiculous...for example Ham...car starting to understeer, so he simply keeps his foot down lap after lap waiting for the penalty. That was simply gaining an advantage, if he would have tried to keep it within the lines he would have lost the position to Norris. Well earned penalty.

I enjoy the drivers being mandated to drive within the white lines, its a feat of speed and precision! But what's the point in such mandates if they cannot enforce it in any meaningful way? Leaves a sour taste.

There is quite a list of penalties, what do you mean with "cannot enforce"? The once that gained from going over the lines got their penalties...all fine.

Even if they somehow figure out how to line every track and every corner with grass, I think the onus is on the sporting body to invest in technology to make monitoring fast and reliable.

Yes and no. I mean....Spielberg is and has been a difficult track in many ways. For Moto even a very bad track. I think the organizers are simply not good.

Matter of fact...the issue comes from the drivers not feeling the edge of the track and then simply not giving a $hit. So it is two folded, but the core issue is that there is no feeling for the line. This could be simply solved with some texture. I do not know why they simply can not give the track some texture on the edge, this can be even done with paint like they do it on highways. The only thing they usually do are stupid sausage curbs...

[Sevach]

The FIA wants gravel traps, MotoGP is not gonna be too happy, let's see next year.

[mwillems]

I need to look tomorrow but my understanding is they are exoected to Black and White flag first for this. The rules made this way to give fair warning.

At best it is outside the spirit of the rules and unfair.

No. They are not allowed to go over the lines, not a single time. The warnings are completely optional.
We saw examples where it was completely ridiculous...for example Ham...car starting to understeer, so he simply keeps his foot down lap after lap waiting for the penalty. That was simply gaining an advantage, if he would have tried to keep it within the lines he would have lost the position to Norris. Well earned penalty.

I disagree. They have a set of rules and whether the warnings are optional or not they are there to give the drivers fair notice, that is the point, the spirit. And the Optional idea of penalties for track limits is highly anomolous in this manner, so in precedent it is not the way to deal with it.

So not following precedent puts them against other drivers who had the advantage of the warning, therefore it creates a non level playing field both by breaking precedent and not being sportsmanlike and fair. What the letter of the law says is pointless at this point. Sportsmanship and fair play is a level playing field and the way they have dealt with it created an unlevel playing field. They should have known from the whole weekend what would happen at that corner and planned accordingly and spoken with the teams about what may happen.

And yes, the drivers wait and wait for the warning before they slow, that is F1 pushing to the edge of what they can get away with, it's somewhat silly to think it will be any other way. In every other race the track limits warnings are quick, they get a conversation from the race directors, then a BW flag before the penalty so in fact plenty of warnings. This was a mess and you cannot simply say it is the drivers fault. They got none of the usual communication, got hit with penalties fairly quickly, couldn't see or feel the track but are expected to push to the limit with massively less support and communication than usual from the FIA who buried their head in the sand about the obvious problem that would occur in the race.


I mean there were articles written about it and the problems that would occur... It's a shambles from the FIA who can't organise a p*ss up in a brewery,

[basti313]

This was a mess and you cannot simply say it is the drivers fault.

Sure it was a mess, but where do you exclude the drivers fault? They have to stay in the lines, or away from walls...
Most drivers managed very well to stay within the white lines. Either they were stupidly (Perez before T10) or deliberately going over the lines. Of course it was hard to judge, but then they have to leave some margin to the line.