McLaren's Daniel Ricciardo has won the Italian Grand Prix ahead of team mate Lando Norris. As both title contenders again clashed and retired from the race, Valtteri Bottas had a brilliant recovery to finish third after starting from the back of the pack.
As for Wolff's tactical foul remark; I highly doubt these two guys would crash on purpose. If however one of then was making an However, both being off and adding zero points deficit by DNF suited both drivers equally. Motive was there for both.
No, it only suited Verstappen. It didn’t suit Hamilton-being ahead in the race and behind in the championship and at the time on course for a three, seven or ten point gain- in the slightest.
As for Wolff's tactical foul remark; I highly doubt these two guys would crash on purpose. If however one of then was making an However, both being off and adding zero points deficit by DNF suited both drivers equally. Motive was there for both.
No, it only suited Verstappen. It didn’t suit Hamilton-being ahead in the race and behind in the championship and at the time on course for a three, seven or ten point gain- in the slightest.
Also one less race left to overtake in points
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
Nice animation, showing how car #44 is leaving a space to car #33
All that shows comments the person that made the animation doesn't know anything about cars or racing.
Lewis and Lando started out on completely different lines.
It's not about Lando. It's about how #44 was squeezing Max. Intentionaly, with no doubts.
Because he has the right to in that situation. It’s basic racing rules. It’s Lewis corner. That’s the whole point, which the stewards pointed out too. If you want another example of this, look at Alonso vs Hamilton in Hungary. In turn 2, Alonso almost constantly ran Hamilton out of road when Hamilton tried to go around the outside, simple because it was Alonso’s corner at the point when Lewis tried the move. Lewis knew it, said hey, I will give it a shot, but I will back out depending on what Alonso chooses to do. That’s what we did, and we had no crash. Plain and simple.
All that shows comments the person that made the animation doesn't know anything about cars or racing.
Lewis and Lando started out on completely different lines.
It's not about Lando. It's about how #44 was squeezing Max. Intentionaly, with no doubts.
Because he has the right to in that situation. It’s basic racing rules. It’s Lewis corner. That’s the whole point, which the stewards pointed out too. If you want another example of this, look at Alonso vs Hamilton in Hungary. In turn 2, Alonso almost constantly ran Hamilton out of road when Hamilton tried to go around the outside, simple because it was Alonso’s corner at the point when Lewis tried the move. Lewis knew it, said hey, I will give it a shot, but I will back out depending on what Alonso chooses to do. That’s what we did, and we had no crash. Plain and simple.
Agree. And that ‘hey I will give it a shot but back out if…’ mindset is the only reason Hamilton and Verstappen haven’t crashed several more times this season when Hamilton has been in the position Verstappen was in at Monza approaching a corner.
IMO Verstappen made almost the opposite decision- that he wasn’t backing out going into or through that chicane, regardless of how the corner developed. It was ‘either he jumps out of the way like usual or we crash’.
It's not about Lando. It's about how #44 was squeezing Max. Intentionaly, with no doubts.
Because he has the right to in that situation. It’s basic racing rules. It’s Lewis corner. That’s the whole point, which the stewards pointed out too. If you want another example of this, look at Alonso vs Hamilton in Hungary. In turn 2, Alonso almost constantly ran Hamilton out of road when Hamilton tried to go around the outside, simple because it was Alonso’s corner at the point when Lewis tried the move. Lewis knew it, said hey, I will give it a shot, but I will back out depending on what Alonso chooses to do. That’s what we did, and we had no crash. Plain and simple.
Agree. And that ‘hey I will give it a shot but back out if…’ mindset is the only reason Hamilton and Verstappen haven’t crashed several more times this season when Hamilton has been in the position Verstappen was in at Monza approaching a corner.
IMO Verstappen made almost the opposite decision- that he wasn’t backing out going into or through that chicane, regardless of how the corner developed. It was ‘either he jumps out of the way like usual or we crash’.
Has anyone seen a stat on Max approach speed at the impact v his speed at that point on previous laps?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
Because he has the right to in that situation. It’s basic racing rules. It’s Lewis corner. That’s the whole point, which the stewards pointed out too. If you want another example of this, look at Alonso vs Hamilton in Hungary. In turn 2, Alonso almost constantly ran Hamilton out of road when Hamilton tried to go around the outside, simple because it was Alonso’s corner at the point when Lewis tried the move. Lewis knew it, said hey, I will give it a shot, but I will back out depending on what Alonso chooses to do. That’s what we did, and we had no crash. Plain and simple.
Agree. And that ‘hey I will give it a shot but back out if…’ mindset is the only reason Hamilton and Verstappen haven’t crashed several more times this season when Hamilton has been in the position Verstappen was in at Monza approaching a corner.
IMO Verstappen made almost the opposite decision- that he wasn’t backing out going into or through that chicane, regardless of how the corner developed. It was ‘either he jumps out of the way like usual or we crash’.
Has anyone seen a stat on Max approach speed at the impact v his speed at that point on previous laps?
Agree. And that ‘hey I will give it a shot but back out if…’ mindset is the only reason Hamilton and Verstappen haven’t crashed several more times this season when Hamilton has been in the position Verstappen was in at Monza approaching a corner.
IMO Verstappen made almost the opposite decision- that he wasn’t backing out going into or through that chicane, regardless of how the corner developed. It was ‘either he jumps out of the way like usual or we crash’.
Has anyone seen a stat on Max approach speed at the impact v his speed at that point on previous laps?
I am quite curious about this as well.
If available to the stewards, it might well have been a factor in their decision making. To me it didn’t really look like he was making it round turn 2 with the angle of his car and the speed he was carrying. I thought Hamilton was probably going to have a compromised exit as well, regardless.
I don't believe comparing his speed to that on a normal line would be of much use, it could very well be lower but still wouldn't really help to judge the situation, more interesting would be the speed of anyone on the same line.
I could be wrong but from the footage it would appear that he wasn't any slower than Lewis when they made contact even though he would have had to take a tighter line through T2 in order to allow for any space for Lewis at the exit.
Because he has the right to in that situation. It’s basic racing rules. It’s Lewis corner. That’s the whole point, which the stewards pointed out too.
What about rule that you need to leave a car width space when someone is next to you?
What about rule that you can't move while you are braking?
If you want another example of this, look at Alonso vs Hamilton in Hungary. In turn 2, Alonso almost constantly ran Hamilton out of road when Hamilton tried to go around the outside, simple because it was Alonso’s corner at the point when Lewis tried the move.
You're trying to compare wide corner with narrow chicane?
Because he has the right to in that situation. It’s basic racing rules. It’s Lewis corner. That’s the whole point, which the stewards pointed out too.
What about rule that you need to leave a car width space when someone is next to you?
What about rule that you can't move while you are braking?
If you want another example of this, look at Alonso vs Hamilton in Hungary. In turn 2, Alonso almost constantly ran Hamilton out of road when Hamilton tried to go around the outside, simple because it was Alonso’s corner at the point when Lewis tried the move.
You're trying to compare wide corner with narrow chicane?
Yo, what is the article number for the rule that states that you need to leave a car width?
Because he has the right to in that situation. It’s basic racing rules. It’s Lewis corner. That’s the whole point, which the stewards pointed out too.
What about rule that you need to leave a car width space when someone is next to you?
What about rule that you can't move while you are braking?
If you want another example of this, look at Alonso vs Hamilton in Hungary. In turn 2, Alonso almost constantly ran Hamilton out of road when Hamilton tried to go around the outside, simple because it was Alonso’s corner at the point when Lewis tried the move.
You're trying to compare wide corner with narrow chicane?
Doesn’t matter if it’s a wide corner or a narrow corner, the prinicple here is the same. Key point is that a driver needs to know WHEN to even decide to be alongside in a given corner. Max was too late in this case to be there, which has been argued over and over again, and shown in the penalty verdict.
As I wrote in a previous post, if I am 100 metres behind the driver in front when the braking starts for a corner, and I decide to brake unresonably late, at some point I probably will be alongside the driver in front when he starts to turn in. Do I then have the right to have space for the corner? No, because I am too late to do that manouvre. This is taking it to the extreme, but it’s the same principle. If you force yourself into a space that isn’t yours to be taking at that given point in time, you don’t have the right to claim that space. Had Max been a fraction further alongside when they started to brake for T1, the case would be different. But he was not, hence, Hamilton owns the right to the corner, and Max needs to fall in line and respect his decision. It hasn’t been any problem for any other driver during the weekend to understand this, so I don’t know why Max cannot do it. It’s the respect of how to conduct fair but hard racing that he lacks.
Because he has the right to in that situation. It’s basic racing rules. It’s Lewis corner. That’s the whole point, which the stewards pointed out too.
What about rule that you need to leave a car width space when someone is next to you?
What about rule that you can't move while you are braking?
If you want another example of this, look at Alonso vs Hamilton in Hungary. In turn 2, Alonso almost constantly ran Hamilton out of road when Hamilton tried to go around the outside, simple because it was Alonso’s corner at the point when Lewis tried the move.
You're trying to compare wide corner with narrow chicane?
This would penalize Max for turn 4 in lap 1.
Many are saying Lewis left too much room for Max in turn 1.
But i think he did that to avoid being pebalized for pushing Max off the track. Some drivers feel pushing Max off was the solution. Doing this may have resulted in a penalty for LH.
Max did not get penalized but Ocon did for Vettel.
LH did the right thing in leaving room to allow Max to make a choice after seeing that there was no way he was going to make the corner.
Max had enough time imo to realize that braking for the sausage curb was the only way his car would not crash into LH. This may be the root of Toto's tactical foul comments.
The intent of Max was not to preserve his car to fight another time after he realized he was not going to be ahead of LH coming out of turn 2.
All that shows comments the person that made the animation doesn't know anything about cars or racing.
Lewis and Lando started out on completely different lines.
It's not about Lando. It's about how #44 was squeezing Max. Intentionaly, with no doubts.
Because he has the right to in that situation. It’s basic racing rules. It’s Lewis corner. That’s the whole point, which the stewards pointed out too. If you want another example of this, look at Alonso vs Hamilton in Hungary. In turn 2, Alonso almost constantly ran Hamilton out of road when Hamilton tried to go around the outside, simple because it was Alonso’s corner at the point when Lewis tried the move. Lewis knew it, said hey, I will give it a shot, but I will back out depending on what Alonso chooses to do. That’s what we did, and we had no crash. Plain and simple.
Perfeft example! Hungary Lewis vs Alonso. I almost forgot that little tussle. Yeah it was Alonso's corner so there was not much complaints over that one. Lewis was a bit optimistic there.
I don't understand (really, not adding fuel) why the position of a car by the end of the breaking zone in T1 is relevant to an accident in T2, where we can say 33 is sufficiently next to 44 (as the rear wheels touched and caused a freak accident.
I understand T1 and T2 are pretty close to one and another, but still .. 33 was sufficiently alongside for T2.
I cannot follow the reason of thought by the stewards to be honest.
A couple things are at play here.
In the offical video you will see Max was well into the braking zone (downshifted 4 times) before he had any overlap with Lewis. This is why the stewards decision had this in it.
In the opinion of the Stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late for the driver of Car 33 to have “the right to racing room”.
To be entitled to space you have to have overlap before the braking zone, or right as you enter it. The stewards will allow some leeway depending on the corner/track.
If you get overlap deep into the braking zone, or after turn in, then you are at the mercy of the other driver, because it's "his corner" or one of the many other phrases you will hear people use. It will remain his corner all the way to corner exit with 2 common exceptions. If the lead car takes a line that's is obviously designed to prevent the other car from making the corner, then they can be considered the one at fault if their is a collision. Hamilton/rosberg Austria 2016 is a good example of this.
The other exception is if the lead driver significantly alters his line mid corner, what's normally referred to as opening the steering angle.
Lewis was cleared of both of these exceptions with this comment from the stewards.
The Stewards observed on CCTV footage that the driver of Car 44 was driving an
avoiding line, although his position caused Car 33 to go onto the kerb.
As you noted, T1 and T2 in Monza are a special case because they are so close together. On most lines the exit of turn 1 and the entry of turn 2 pretty much don't exist. It's a continuous sequence of movements and the stewards will generally treat it as if it was 1 turn. By that I mean If Max had overlap entering the braking zone for turn 1, he's be entitled to it all the way through the exit of turn 2 in the eyes of the stewards.
It's very nuanced, and personally I blame the commentators for a lot of peoples misunderstandings. They try and dumb everything down and make it sound black and white.
It's not though, it's very grey, and very situational. If Lewis goes to deep into the corner before turning, or opens up his steering he will be at fault. If he runs wide himself, or loose control of the car in the slightest way, he will be at fault. If he does anything that looks intentional he will be at fault, etc etc.
The video:
Thnx, that's a well constructed reasoning/opinion, and probably exactly the way how it was judged by the stewards. I do not agree with it, but I can follow that line of thinking.
But the fact that T1 & T2 are considered one just feels weird; a corner is a corner, two corners in a different direction ought to be just that: 2 corners. We can make up stuff like you need to be sufficiently aside at the start of the corner (or before the breaking zone or anything else, for whatever 'sufficiently aside' is defined to be), but imho that just feels artificial.
Plus the fact that late breaking (whilst making the corner with ease) is apparently now considered somewhat cheeky, and almost punishable in itself, makes proper racing almost impossible. Being the latest of the late breakers will with that line of thinking no longer be a plus, and with that Sunday's race becomes almost irrelevant as the order is mainly set in Q1/2/3.
Maybe I'm just a sour, old grape, but I want racing without knowing the outcome. This crash could have avoided by both, but with stakes this high both will not give in, so it happened. I rather see these things happen from time to time though than obedient racing. As said by many for weeks: stop the desire to always having to put down blame (either way).
But hey, I'm not right .. I'm just thinking out loud.
