2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[FW17]

A 350kw mgu can generate 0.09kwh per second.

The rear wheels assuming 30% energy of the car in a 100km deceleration will be 0.125kkwh per second.

[mzso]

Wouldn't it be sensible, instead, to increase the maximum battery weight from 20 kg to say 400kg so that 350 kW could be nearly always available for most of the Grand Prix?

IIRC Formula E battery weight is 250 kg, but their races are much, much shorter than 305km. A 400kg battery allowance (unlimited energy density to promote competition, of course) would make the F1 minimum weight about 1200kg, which would be great for road relevance as BEVs tend to be heavier than the similar ICE and it's important to reflect that and be road relevant.

---

Actually you could probably save about 50 (?), so it would be 1250 kg instead of 1300kg at a Grand Prix start, by reducing the combustion engine size to a 1L V4 turbo, and proportionally reducing the maximum liquid fuel allowance to 73 kg.

Not sure what would be the point. You'd have the weight of a large pack as well everything related to the ICE. A lose-lose situation the way I see it. Drivers and some fans are already complaining about the large weight. A change like this would be deeply unpopular.

[JordanMugen]

Not sure what would be the point. You'd have the weight of a large pack as well everything related to the ICE.

Having both is the whole point of a hybrid sportscar or hybrid racing car, isn't it?

Otherwise you would just race an ICE racing car or a BEV racing car. But F1 wants to race a hybrid racing car.

The point of having both in one hybrid F1 car is quite simple:
1) BEV Formula One car would not be fast 'enough'.
2) ICE Formula One car is unacceptable to sponsors and manufacturers.

Therefore stick both in the same car!

400kg is not a large battery pack anyhow, the battery pack equivalent to 110kg of petrol used at 50% efficiency (i.e., for a like-to-like replacement) is over 2000kg. So 400kg is a small battery pack and would merely supplement the energy dense (albeit as you say regressive) liquid fuel.

Once the energy density of the battery storage improves by 400-500%, then the 400kg battery could be retained and the liquid fuel and combustion engine could be abolished (noting Formula E contract negotiations and the need of a settlement there w.r.t. FIA exclusive BEV formula racing series).

A change like this would be deeply unpopular.

2035 ICE ban is deeply unpopular in some circles (e.g., FerrariChat.com the Ferrari owner's forum), but it is what it is.

If ~2000kg is the equivalent battery to 110kg liquid fuel, it goes without saying that by extension 400kg is a small battery. 1200kg is not heavy in absolute terms, it's the weight of a Fiat 500 Abarth which is considered a small and light road car (incidentally, the Fiat is not even a hybrid!).

If batteries are just plain better, then at least put a reasonable one in the F1 car, even if it's not the full 2000kg equivalent to regressive liquid fuel.

It's still just the liquid you pour in the tanks, won't make the cars less regressive...

I was watching the 2003 British Grand Prix, and the 3.0L V10s non-turbo non-hybrids were great as an entertainment spectacle -- that is what I would prefer, F1 should have arguably never gone away from those happenstance rules (perhaps just added a 16,000 or 18,000rpm rev limit -- good thing old man Ferrari got his way for the FIA to allow more than the 8 cylinders of the Cosworth, such that everyone eventually ended with 10!), but apparently sponsors and manufacturers would find that unacceptable hence the turbo hybrid direction instead for the power units.

If it's going to be hybrid, what not push the electric component as much as practicable? It's already a big concession to only run a 400kg battery instead of the 2000kg battery that would be the driect equivalent of the liquid fuel. So the slack of that missing 1600kg of battery is taken up by a little bit of regressive liquid fuel and a regressive ICE.

[Stu]

A solution such as Audi are using for their Dakar entry (or that WAE came up with for the aborted Jaguar hypercar) would be a great halfway house (synthetic fuel could be used for the range-extending ‘generator-unit’) the battery pack could be increased in capacity, along with fuel capacity being reduced. MGUK on both axles would be nice (although GUK on the front would probably be better for the purists). Brakes could be made smaller. It could be reasonably lightweight. However, this is all dreamland stuff as in the long run F1 has a limited lifetime, due to it’s reliance on air travel for transportation.

[mzso]

400kg is not a large battery pack anyhow, the battery pack equivalent to 110kg of petrol used at 50% efficiency (i.e., for a like-to-like replacement) is over 2000kg. So 400kg is a small battery pack and would merely supplement the energy dense (albeit as you say regressive) liquid fuel.

What energy density number did you use for the battery? (And fuel)

2035 ICE ban is deeply unpopular in some circles (e.g., FerrariChat.com the Ferrari owner's forum), but it is what it is.

Well, +400kg wouldn't be just some circles. More than half an F1 car weight...

the energy dense (albeit as you say regressive) liquid fuel.

I didn't say that. You even quoted part of my comment that shows this...
I said that the PU will be more primitive.

Having both is the whole point of a hybrid sportscar or hybrid racing car, isn't it?

If you want to add the most of both you get a monstrous abomination. A great hulking mess for little gain. The „La Toujours Contente” Lohner-Porsche variant comes into mind, that I read about.

[mzso]

A solution such as Audi are using for their Dakar entry (or that WAE came up with for the aborted Jaguar hypercar) would be a great halfway house (synthetic fuel could be used for the range-extending ‘generator-unit’) the battery pack could be increased in capacity, along with fuel capacity being reduced. MGUK on both axles would be nice (although GUK on the front would probably be better for the purists). Brakes could be made smaller. It could be reasonably lightweight.

I think this came up earlier. (I raised it) And I don't think it has any chance of being light weight. You need a several hundred kW electric generator with a several hundred kW ICE, and an even bigger electric motor, plus batteries of course. And you even propose some extra generators on the front wheels.

[Ferry]

Do you miss the last time you had a petrol hot hatch (or sportscar) with an internal combustion engine...

I answered you in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27450&p=1005452#p1005452

[NL_Fer]

1200kg is insane, that is a totally different race class, like sports- or touringcars.

But a slightly bigger battery, that can save up 2-3 laps of energy to deploy it all in one lap, could be fun. It could also be fun use quickcharge during the pitstop.

[Big Tea]

1200kg is insane, that is a totally different race class, like sports- or touringcars.

But a slightly bigger battery, that can save up 2-3 laps of energy to deploy it all in one lap, could be fun. It could also be fun use quickcharge during the pitstop.

That could be a way around the rushed / botched pitstops. Include a (say) 10 second charge option.
You can bet they will soon have the tec to shove 10 laps worth of energy in and it will more than recover the time lost

[NL_Fer]

1200kg is insane, that is a totally different race class, like sports- or touringcars.

But a slightly bigger battery, that can save up 2-3 laps of energy to deploy it all in one lap, could be fun. It could also be fun use quickcharge during the pitstop.

That could be a way around the rushed / botched pitstops. Include a (say) 10 second charge option.
You can bet they will soon have the tec to shove 10 laps worth of energy in and it will more than recover the time lost

Actually I don’t like the lose the possibility of a fast perfectly executed tyre change. So maybe induction charging in the pitlane entry/exit would be better.

But if they add something to make the benefit of a pitstop bigger, than the time lost, it could make racing more exciting. Also the marketing value of electrics, improving the race is golden.

[mzso]

But a slightly bigger battery, that can save up 2-3 laps of energy to deploy it all in one lap, could be fun. It could also be fun use quickcharge during the pitstop.

Actually I don’t like the lose the possibility of a fast perfectly executed tyre change. So maybe induction charging in the pitlane entry/exit would be better.

There's no such battery tech that can be charged in seconds, even if it's a 1kWh battery as in F1. Atop of this inductive charging is both inefficient and adds pointless dead weight.

The way I see it tire changes are toxic. Overtakes should happen on the track. So they should go towards removing them. But not as stupidly as it was in 2005, but by giving minimum pitstop time, and forcing the manufacturer to bring tires that comfortably last the whole race, retaining as much grip as possible.

But if they add something to make the benefit of a pitstop bigger, than the time lost, it could make racing more exciting.

I thinks they should make the racing more exciting, by actually making the racing more exciting. Next year's rules should help, but they should push forward if the effects are not significant enough. Also they should put more effort into making the field (much) tighter.

[NL_Fer]

With 1000kw charging, 1s charges as much as 3s of 350kw brake recovery.
4s of charge could be as much as a full lap of brake recovery.

If this powerunit is introduced in 2026, features like quick or inductive charging can be added in 2027 or 2028. In 6 years allot can be improved in power and efficiency.

[mzso]

With 1000kw charging, 1s charges as much as 3s of 350kw brake recovery.
4s of charge could be as much as a full lap of brake recovery.

If this powerunit is introduced in 2026, features like quick or inductive charging can be added in 2027 or 2028. In 6 years allot can be improved in power and efficiency.

No battery would take that even if it was possible to deliver 1000kW.

[NL_Fer]

With 1000kw charging, 1s charges as much as 3s of 350kw brake recovery.
4s of charge could be as much as a full lap of brake recovery.

If this powerunit is introduced in 2026, features like quick or inductive charging can be added in 2027 or 2028. In 6 years allot can be improved in power and efficiency.

No battery would take that even if it was possible to deliver 1000kW.

Than use a capacitor as a buffer

[Big Tea]

I'm sure if it can be done, it would either be defence or F1 that could do it, and defence would not tell us for 10 years.