Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

[El Scorchio]

It looks like MB has introduced more aggressive engine maps.

Also maybe to do with their big upgrade which allowed them to stop running massive wings and lessen drag- so perhaps partly but not all engine based?

[Hoffman900]

‘’Off topic’’ Yes. Off topic if ever there was one. This as a Prostock single cam in block push-rod 8.2l 90 degree v8 valve train cannot have any relevance whatsoever to the formula one engine valve train subject. And. I am still trying to figure-out an engine running at a crankshaft speed of 10k RPM with a camshaft speed of 11800 `RPM.

If you were to read it, you would understand why. It's the same reason F1 camshaft drives have quills, or link the cams together, or have dampers. In Honda's 24hr Suzuka EWC effort, they added heavier cam gears.

*note: they are expressed as crankshaft rpm. Camshaft rpm is half those values.



It's really no more off topic than a discussion on valve seat recession (based on rumors and nothing more) and also not discussing how little (if any) valve seat recession these engines can tolerate due to having cladded valve seats. Honda covered it here and Toyota is using them in street engines.

Development of Laser Clad Welded Valve Seat
http://www.f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Files ... P2_38e.pdf

Toyota's:
https://www.industrial-lasers.com/addit ... alve-seats

Toyota's first use of them in motorsports was in 1991 at LeMans: https://www.sae.org/publications/techni ... nt/920571/

It will be interesting to see with the switch to more synthentic fuels how they hold as up you start losing the lubricity from petroleum fuels.

As for Helmut Marko, I wouldn't listen to a word he says. He's the biggest gaslighter in the paddock.

[FW17]

It looks like MB has introduced more aggressive engine maps.

Also maybe to do with their big upgrade which allowed them to stop running massive wings and lessen drag- so perhaps partly but not all engine based?

Mercedes were running a bigger wing than Red Bull. Once again the engine seems to have more headroom in the second half of the season as seen in 17 and 18

[PlatinumZealot]

I take many thing Toto says with a grain of salt, especially at this sensitive stage of the championship. He is trying his best to confuse RedBull here it seems. But nevertheless noises at end of component life is also a good topic.

What I learnt during my time at a powerplant (giant slow speed diesels) was that noise analysis for combustion and in-cylinder wear was a complex subject and somewhat of a nebulous art (engines are noisy!). We found not much conclusions from different science papers for what we were looking for. These are like very minisucle variations here, I am not taking about obvious sounds of damage or bad timing, but little frequencies that we were hoping would stand out.. Anyway... It's basically like trying to find inteligent life from outerspace.. You will spend a long time searching....

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes- ... al-noises/

“Our power units have been the most reliable since the introduction of the hybrid engines in 2014,” Wolff said, quoted by Autosport.

“Because these boundaries are being pushed, we have seen examples of, let’s say, unusual noises, within the combustion engine that aren’t completely understood at that stage yet, and therefore caused some trouble in the past.

“We had engines that basically failed, and now it’s about containing the problem, because in that phase, redesigning parts is not something you would tackle.

“Balancing performance and reliability has always been the key metric in the past couple of years, and it will be also going forward,” Wolff said.

“We will not be carrying any deficits into next year, because the deficits are being understood. And now it’s about finding solutions that contain these.”

[toraabe]

They are just running the engine in maximum power mode ( Like Hamilton in Brazil 2017 )
That's why they have realibility issues, but it,s also a test bench for 2022. They just want to find out how the ICE can handle that mistreatment, and be well prepeared for 2022...

The power was always there, but they never used it until now .....

[Juzh]

The power was always there, but they never used it until now .....

This is my suspicion as well. They had this headroom from start of the season, but didn't know how far they can push it. Now we are gradually seeing more and more power being released, probably using bottas' car as a test bed, that's why he's having more reliability problems.

[SiLo]

And it makes sense right? Because the regulations are changing hugely for next year, so finally pushing the engine really hard, and seeing what you can get from it means any issues with the chassis might be papered over for a while next year.

[Just_a_fan]

And it makes sense right? Because the regulations are changing hugely for next year, so finally pushing the engine really hard, and seeing what you can get from it means any issues with the chassis might be papered over for a while next year.

Isn't it more to do with the coming engine freeze? Find out what the engine is capable of on track so you know where the real life limits of your frozen design are. You can then use your allowed reliability modifications to deal with the reliability issues having identified them on track. As good as the dynos are, nothing simulates real world use like really using it.

[Bill]

every time merc becomes fast than Rbr the pu topic becomes an issue these is a ruse what about understeer Max suffured the Merc still have clipping problems and power degradation compared to Honda that what Horner told us in Monza .i quess the glass is always half empty

[toraabe]

And it makes sense right? Because the regulations are changing hugely for next year, so finally pushing the engine really hard, and seeing what you can get from it means any issues with the chassis might be papered over for a while next year.

Isn't it more to do with the coming engine freeze? Find out what the engine is capable of on track so you know where the real life limits of your frozen design are. You can then use your allowed reliability modifications to deal with the reliability issues having identified them on track. As good as the dynos are, nothing simulates real world use like really using it.

Exactly. Because of the freezing, they want to push the engines to the limit and see where they have to do changes before next year.

[SiLo]

And it makes sense right? Because the regulations are changing hugely for next year, so finally pushing the engine really hard, and seeing what you can get from it means any issues with the chassis might be papered over for a while next year.

Isn't it more to do with the coming engine freeze? Find out what the engine is capable of on track so you know where the real life limits of your frozen design are. You can then use your allowed reliability modifications to deal with the reliability issues having identified them on track. As good as the dynos are, nothing simulates real world use like really using it.

Exactly. Because of the freezing, they want to push the engines to the limit and see where they have to do changes before next year.

it doesn't make my point wrong, it's still part of that I guess. But I agree that reliability upgrades can be used to gain performance that was previiously unatainnable for an extended period of time, such that the engines have to do.

[toraabe]

Isn't it more to do with the coming engine freeze? Find out what the engine is capable of on track so you know where the real life limits of your frozen design are. You can then use your allowed reliability modifications to deal with the reliability issues having identified them on track. As good as the dynos are, nothing simulates real world use like really using it.

Exactly. Because of the freezing, they want to push the engines to the limit and see where they have to do changes before next year.

it doesn't make my point wrong, it's still part of that I guess. But I agree that reliability upgrades can be used to gain performance that was previiously unatainnable for an extended period of time, such that the engines have to do.

Exactly

[PlatinumZealot]

Remember the Mercedes way of engine design?

Test a "chunky boy" for Maximum power and reliability.
Test a refined esquisite, impressionable block for lightweight and to show up weak points.

Then they blend the two results into third block.

Valterri's Monza Block could be that lightweight esquisite block that shows up all the little finger prints of wear and gforces at high power.
That's why it couldn't be used. Probably only good for one race.

[dans79]

As good as the dynos are, nothing simulates real world use like really using it.

Yep, you can't simulate the hi g loading and shock loading on the dyno as far as I'm aware.

[b2bL44]

The power was always there, but they never used it until now .....

This is my suspicion as well. They had this headroom from start of the season, but didn't know how far they can push it. Now we are gradually seeing more and more power being released, probably using bottas' car as a test bed, that's why he's having more reliability problems.

I suspect you're bang on, though I would speculate that the testing started a lot earlier in the season.

Austria.

Yes Merc ran a yacht sail as a rear wing, however this alone does not account for their lack of pace. I believe that Merc went into the double-header at Austria knowing they had reliability issues and were conservative with their power units.

Russell's power unit was run into the ground during the Styrian GP in an effort to assess where exactly the reliability issues were. Note the components that were replaced for the Austrian GP:

His power unit was returned to HPP in Brixworth, and after investigations it has been deemed that it suffered a gear drive failure. Russell's car will thus have a new ICE, MGU-H and turbo when Williams reserve driver Jack Aitken takes to the track in FP1 on Friday for the Styrian Grand Prix.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/russe ... 2/4981342/

The ICE, MGU-H and turbo are swapped out as a single piece and we now know that the issues are within the ICE.

The power unit introduced in Monza for Bottas would have come with reliability upgrades, the ICE was once again run hard to get a real world confirmation that the reliability upgrades were sufficient. These components were then retired and sent to Brixworth for analysis and Bottas got new components in Sochi, with Lewis only replacing the ICE in Turkey.

That's the conclusion that I come to when joining the dots.