2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

[mzivtins]

Mercedes had been proven to fail the test. They were DSQed. So you don’t have to be afraid, they actually were cheating with their DRS. I don’t buy the fresh engine story no.

If you have this much advantage with a fresh engine, you can start dead last in a sprint race and P10 in any main race (even without a tire advantage) and still win dominantly. So then race 23 engines. Or 12 if you don’t want to be greedy.

There was a nice bit of info in this thread about the engine. one was ordered specifically to last only 4 race distances, which allows the engine to be run a lot harder as it only needs to cover very small mileage.

Imagine what these f1 engine could do if they were only expected to last a single race, i would argue that, at tracks like silverstone, spa, monza, brazil etc etc and end penalty with view of having that engine last just one race would be enough to give most of the cars a winning package.

[Rodak]

https://streamja.com/zPZAM
Why LH is moving the steering wheel back and forth? DAS was banned for 2021 Maybe it's a new system?

I am no engineer, but I guess the answer is pretty simple. If you head down a straight with nearly 300km/h and then jump on the brakes, there is quite a bit of force on the pedal. To get that force you need to create quite a bit of pressure on the peddal. as the stearing wheel is the other point of contact, this is where you react. Grip it hard to brake hard.
Do you have onboard footage of all the other drivers? I would suspect that this is the case for most of them. A few could grip the seat with their a**, personally I would prefer the steering wheel as well

In a race car you don't brace yourself on the wheel to counter braking forces, you are strapped into the seat and the belts and the form fitted seat take the loads, leaving you free to work the wheel as required. I suspect you've never done it......

[mzivtins]

Red Bull changed parts, presumably because they failed, is that cheating as well?

In regards to clutches, I thought all f1 clutches were adjusted with shims so had to be pulled and shimmed at each event? Where they say the clutches are of an older type, has this changed for most cars then?

[Sieper]

@Sieper you aren't doing yourself any favors by complaining about something, and then turning around and doing that very thing a few minutes later.

I have not done anything unfavourable. I just call it as it is. There have been a few DSQs over the years, and always the DSQed party has a story, why it was just a 0,0001 spike, there actually was fuel left, it was wear. These are rules of the game we are playing. If you fail a straight cut test that you must adhere to at all times, that is cheating. You should have prevented that and you did not. It happened to many teams not just Mercedes on Saturday.

Red Bull changed parts, presumably because they failed, is that cheating as well?

If a part failed but even with it failing you are still in compliance of the rules, then it is not cheating. You are still in compliance. Repairing parts is fine, even under parc ferme, like for like. Sometimes you can even get a benefit, f.e. a new tire if you braked a severe flat spot. Otherwise the tire might explode and that could cause a danger.

[Jolle]

@Sieper you aren't doing yourself any favors by complaining about something, and then turning around and doing that very thing a few minutes later.

I have not done anything unfavourable. I just call it as it is. There have been a few DSQs over the years, and always the DSQed party has a story, why it was just a 0,0001 spike, there actually was fuel left, it was wear. These are rules of the game we are playing. If you fail a straight cut test that you must adhere to at all times, that is cheating. You should have prevented that and you did not. It happened to many teams not just Mercedes on Saturday.

Red Bull changed parts, presumably because they failed, is that cheating as well?

Redbull was driving with movable aero during qualifying (the upper rear wing element was flapping like crazy when open).

I’m more interested why Ferrari had a different spec rear wing and still started on the grid?

[Incognito]

If breach of the rules = cheating...then I have terrible news for you about Verstappen's driving and a certain black and white flag today. And numerous other occasions when he's been penalised. And almost the entire history of Red Bull. And every other driver and team on the grid.

[Sieper]

Mercedes had been proven to fail the test. They were DSQed. So you don’t have to be afraid, they actually were cheating with their DRS. I don’t buy the fresh engine story no.

If you have this much advantage with a fresh engine, you can start dead last in a sprint race and P10 in any main race (even without a tire advantage) and still win dominantly. So then race 23 engines. Or 12 if you don’t want to be greedy.

There was a nice bit of info in this thread about the engine. one was ordered specifically to last only 4 race distances, which allows the engine to be run a lot harder as it only needs to cover very small mileage.

Imagine what these f1 engine could do if they were only expected to last a single race, i would argue that, at tracks like silverstone, spa, monza, brazil etc etc and end penalty with view of having that engine last just one race would be enough to give most of the cars a winning package.

If that is true, why not do it? Every race. First 3 races you win. 4th race you get 10 spots, Lewis still easily won from 10 today. You win or are at least thereabouts. Then race 5 onwards you get just 5 spots penalty. Should/could be winning most. You don’t even need to go this far if the engine can make it 4 races as per the apparent ordered engine capabilities. You would just need 23/4 is 6 engines. Lewis is on 5 anyway. Would have blasted the season. I would do that next year then.

I have my suspicions that the performance difference is found elsewhere. And that is just my suspicion, I did not call that cheating, what I called cheating was failing to comply the maximum DRS opening. That document does not talk about any measured values, just a ball being pulled with 10kn of pulling force.

[Sieper]

If breach of the rules = cheating...then I have terrible news for you about Verstappen's driving and a certain black and white flag today. And him adjusting Hamilton's rear wing yesterday. And numerous other occasions when he's been penalised. And almost the entire history of Red Bull. And every other driver and team on the grid.

Yeah, being disqualified from a qualifying session for failing to drive a car that is in compliance is not really the same as getting a warning flag, or a fine.

Lewis got a fine today too. That is not cheating.

[zibby43]

https://streamable.com/zo111f

Steering wheel stop working mid-corner, or what?

credit to u/kj-ka- for the stabilization

Is it just me or does it look like he opened the steering right after the apex to run Hamilton wide? (look at the front wheels)

Any onboard yet? It’s a travesty the stewards couldn’t access the forward cam during the race

[Noble29]

I really don't think using the word 'cheating' is appropriate. To me at least, 'cheating' is a deliberate act to gain an advantage by breaking the rules. An outside edge of a DRS flap failing by the smallest of margins, due to damage/stress/fatigue whilst being out on circuit is very much not a deliberate act. Like a driver running wide and getting a lap deleted, it's illegal [in some places when the rules are enforced] but I wouldn't call it cheating, because the driver isn't doing it on purpose because they know the lap won't count. Ricciardo being DSQ whenever it was in Singapore quali for that technical mishap with the battery power for a nano second, not cheating because it's not on purpose and not designed to do that, but it's still illegal as per the rulebook - just a couple of examples.

I don't disagree that the rear wing was found to be illegal, and by the letter of the law a DSQ was appropriate because the rulebook says so, but as Toto stated, if it's damage caused out on track that then causes a failure of a test, it's harsh but what can you do, the wing certainly wasn't designed to fail a test. But to say Merc are cheats or are cheating is over the top and looks a bit petulant and as if the toys need to be returned to the pram from where they came.

That's before we get started on the whole 'well there must be something on that car that suddenly makes it so fast, seems dodgy/fishy to me', implying they're up to no good. It's sad that the pendulum swings so damn far from side to side in these comments in recent times, depending on which driver/team comes out on top over the course of a weekend. It's hard to find the logical and sensible discussions when so much fanboying and hatred/bitterness towards the other side is shown.

[RZS10]

This part of the decision document basically says that the FIA and the stewards are confident that there's no cheating:

The Competitor asserted that the design is intended to meet the regulations. It was clear to the Stewards that the additional deflection was due to additional play either in the DRS actuator or the pivots at the end, or some combination or other fault with the mechanism, or incorrect assembly of the parts. The Stewards heard, from both the team and the FIA that the same design has been tested many times during the season and uniformly passed.

Further, the FIA has examined the design of the area of the car in question and are satisfied that the design meets the intent of the regulation.

There is therefore no question in the minds of the Stewards that the test failure indicates any intent to exceed the maximum dimension either by action or design."

Calling that 'cheating' is a really, uh, let's say ... liberal ... use of the word.
__________________________

I doubt they will ever upload the forward facing onboard. If i understood correctly it's stored on the car but what possible reason would they have to show it to the public?

[dans79]

These are rules of the game we are playing. If you fail a straight cut test that you must adhere to at all times, that is cheating. You should have prevented that and you did not. It happened to many teams not just Mercedes on Saturday.

Then by your logic Red Bull is far worse, as they designed the car to breach the rules last time they got dsq'd!

In abu dhabi 2014 both red bull cars were excluded from qualifying, because they designed their cars to breach the rules.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -%2028.pdf

When checking the front wing of car numbers 01 and 03 it was found that the front wing flaps were
designed to flex under aerodynamic load. In my opinion this is not in compliance with Article 3.15 of
the Formula One Technical Regulations. Therefore I am referring this matter to the stewards for their
consideration.

While yesterday the stewards specifically stated Merc did not design or intend to violate the rules.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... _-_drs.pdf

Further, the FIA has examined the design of the area
of the car in question and are satisfied that the design meets the intent of the
regulation. There is therefore no question in the minds of the Stewards that the test
failure indicates any intent to exceed the maximum dimension either by action or
design.

[Incognito]

Yeah, being disqualified from a qualifying session for failing to drive a car that is in compliance is not really the same as getting a warning flag, or a fine.

If you fail a straight cut test that you must adhere to at all times, that is cheating.

I don't see anything in your initial statement about shades of gray? You were very clear. If you fail a straight test (e.g. don't touch a competitor's car in parc ferme, don't make multiple moves on a straight, etc) then how is that not 'cheating'? In both cases, the Stewards clearly ruled that a breach had occurred. Maybe it's the shade of jumpsuit you wear when you 'cheat'?


As an aside, the off track debacle puts Bottas' T1 defence in Mexico into a new light. He should've moved 10 metres to his left and not even bothered to brake or turn. Apparently, that's 'letting them race' and would've been fine.

[Sieper]

These are rules of the game we are playing. If you fail a straight cut test that you must adhere to at all times, that is cheating. You should have prevented that and you did not. It happened to many teams not just Mercedes on Saturday.

Then by your logic Red Bull is far worse, as they designed the car to breach the rules last time they got dsq'd!

In abu dhabi 2014 both red bull cars were excluded from qualifying, because they designed their cars to breach the rules.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -%2028.pdf

When checking the front wing of car numbers 01 and 03 it was found that the front wing flaps were
designed to flex under aerodynamic load. In my opinion this is not in compliance with Article 3.15 of
the Formula One Technical Regulations. Therefore I am referring this matter to the stewards for their
consideration.

While yesterday the stewards specifically stated Merc did not design or intend to violate the rules.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... _-_drs.pdf

Further, the FIA has examined the design of the area
of the car in question and are satisfied that the design meets the intent of the
regulation. There is therefore no question in the minds of the Stewards that the test
failure indicates any intent to exceed the maximum dimension either by action or
design.

They cheated there and got caught in 14. Or how would you have me call it?

The wording is very sensitive and sensible by the stewards. Mercedes is a reputable company. A stakeholder in the F1 by billions of dollars since their return. It also shows under what pressure the stewards are even to make such a call.

I am just a fan (not him )and call it as it was. They took a liberty, beyond the border and they knew it. They all know their cars. In fact, even redbull knew this time around.

[Sieper]

Yeah, being disqualified from a qualifying session for failing to drive a car that is in compliance is not really the same as getting a warning flag, or a fine.

If you fail a straight cut test that you must adhere to at all times, that is cheating.

I don't see anything in your initial statement about shades of gray? You were very clear. If you fail a straight test (e.g. don't touch a competitor's car in parc ferme, don't make multiple moves on a straight, etc) then how is that not 'cheating'? In both cases, the Stewards clearly ruled that a breach had occurred. Does it depend what colour of jumpsuit you wear when you 'cheat'?


As an aside, the off track debacle puts Bottas' T1 defence in Mexico into a new light. He should've moved 10 metres to his left and not even bothered to brake or turn. Apparently, that's 'letting them race' and would've been fine.

If you think looking at a car / touching a car is cheating (because you got fined) then Everyone is a cheater, Lewis got fined today for unbuckling too soon, so is a cheater. That is offcourse Bs. Mercedes cheated the DRS maximum allowance, yes. I am convinced.