2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

[Incognito]

If you think looking at a car / touching a car is cheating (because you got fined) then Everyone is a cheater, Lewis got fined today for unbuckling too soon, so is a cheater. That is offcourse Bs.

That's literally the point I'm making. I'm glad you agree that your initial position was ludicrous.

Although, no one mentioned 'looking'? Why bring something no one said into it and then claim that was what was said? What about your position is so weak that you need to lie about things to make it stronger? It also makes discussion with you pointless.

[Marty_Y]

Yeah, being disqualified from a qualifying session for failing to drive a car that is in compliance is not really the same as getting a warning flag, or a fine.

If you fail a straight cut test that you must adhere to at all times, that is cheating.

I don't see anything in your initial statement about shades of gray? You were very clear. If you fail a straight test (e.g. don't touch a competitor's car in parc ferme, don't make multiple moves on a straight, etc) then how is that not 'cheating'? In both cases, the Stewards clearly ruled that a breach had occurred. Does it depend what colour of jumpsuit you wear when you 'cheat'?


As an aside, the off track debacle puts Bottas' T1 defence in Mexico into a new light. He should've moved 10 metres to his left and not even bothered to brake or turn. Apparently, that's 'letting them race' and would've been fine.

If you think looking at a car / touching a car is cheating (because you got fined) then Everyone is a cheater, Lewis got fined today for unbuckling too soon, so is a cheater. That is offcourse Bs. Mercedes cheated the DRS maximum allowance, yes. I am convinced.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59285491

Behind the scenes, Red Bull were pressing the FIA to investigate the Mercedes rear wing. And when it was tested after Hamilton took pole position on Friday by more than 0.4 seconds, it was found to be in contravention of the rules.

Not in the way Red Bull had believed, though. They had looked at Hamilton's straight-line speed and thought something must be up for it to be so fast. They suspected the wing of flexing backwards on the straight above a certain speed - the same thing Mercedes had accused Red Bull of earlier in the season.

This is why Verstappen was fiddling with Hamilton's rear wing after qualifying - for which he was fined 50,000 euros.

When officials were measuring Hamilton's wing, they found that when the DRS overtaking aid was deployed the gap between the upper and lower elements was bigger than permitted in a small area at the outer edge on one side - by just 0.2mm. It took them 24 hours to make a decision, but Hamilton was thrown out of qualifying, so had to start the 'sprint' race from last place.

He fought back superbly to fifth in 24 laps, took the engine penalty for the grand prix, then climbed from 10th on the grid to win that.

"The weekend was definitely a roller-coaster ride for us," Wolff said, "and that's why it feels sweeter to win."

Hamilton said he was "devastated" when he found about the disqualification, which came as a surprise to Mercedes, who felt they were not being treated fairly in the context of the normal protocols the FIA applies.

The verdict made it clear that the FIA believed there was no intention to cheat, that the test failure was a result of "something gone wrong rather than a deliberate action".

Wolff argued that, in that case, Mercedes should be allowed to change the damaged part rather than be punished for it.

"We had a broken part on our rear wing which we couldn't look at, couldn't analyse, failed the test, and after got disqualified, very harsh," he said. "And then you see on the Red Bull repairs three races in a row on a rear wing while being in parc ferme with no consequence."

He went on to say that he was "losing faith in a way", adding: "We have just had many punches in the face this weekend. When all the decisions swing against you, it is something I am just angry about.

"I have always been very diplomatic in how I discuss things, but diplomacy has ended today."

[Sieper]

If you think looking at a car / touching a car is cheating (because you got fined) then Everyone is a cheater, Lewis got fined today for unbuckling too soon, so is a cheater. That is offcourse Bs.

That's literally the point I'm making. I'm glad you agree that your initial position was ludicrous.

Although, no one mentioned 'looking'? Why bring something no one said into it and then claim that was what was said? What about your position is so weak that you need to lie about things to make it stronger? It also makes discussion with you pointless.

He was looking (and touching). I did not say he was not. The rule on which Max got fined as a basis has that you may not “inspect” (Forgot the actual word, something along those lines) your competitors car. So stepping up and measuring with finger/hand as a reference is already not allowed. You don’t need to touch it. In fact, by that wording looking at the car is not allowed if you try to learn something of that. Looking at a wing to see what setting it has in parc ferme is not allowed. Apparently. You could get fined.

[RZS10]

In fact, even redbull knew this time around.

Those were two seperate things, the media failed at making that clear enough [edit: should add 'initially' right here, there's enough articles now which very clearly point it out] in all their reporting tbh and it's easy to mix it all up but what RB believes Merc might be doing with their wing and what they might potentially protest at some point is not related to the issue they had with the wing which lead to the DSQ.

[Manoah2u]

So does that Merc mill last for another 3 races? If it does, this title shifts to Ham.

Yep, Lewis has 2 as good as fresh engines for the coming 3 races.
engine output to full beans will have an exponential effect on everything.
more power to use in the corners, more power to use in the top speed.
with the suspension squatting that'll bring another benefit, AND let's not forget that
it will also cause less time lost during harvesting for the battery.

they should put up a big FU and reduce their DRS opening by 0.2 mm from the max allowed space,
and still beat the living daylights out of the opponent.

Anyway, as for the race

NOT what i expected but very very happy with the end result.
Amazing how much effort the FIA is doing to prevent that 8th title from Lewis and just give it to Max.

RB's gaining under the VSC, no action.
Max pushing off Lewis and a clear breach and it's not even 'investigated' - as it would demand a penalty.
Then weaving like a madman and then handing an useless black-white flag after Lewis passed.
DSQ from Q instead of a grid penalty and/or the chance to fix the wing like the chance RBR did get.

Amazing absolutely amazing driving of Lewis, this is why he's the GOAT.
That was utterly amazing. To be able to get from p20 to p5 in the short sprint race was nothing short of amazing,
then to start from p10 and WIN, despite all that was thrown, is absolutely legendary.

Lewis is smelling blood and he's going full on now. This is fantastic.

[zibby43]

These are rules of the game we are playing. If you fail a straight cut test that you must adhere to at all times, that is cheating. You should have prevented that and you did not. It happened to many teams not just Mercedes on Saturday.

Then by your logic Red Bull is far worse, as they designed the car to breach the rules last time they got dsq'd!

In abu dhabi 2014 both red bull cars were excluded from qualifying, because they designed their cars to breach the rules.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -%2028.pdf

When checking the front wing of car numbers 01 and 03 it was found that the front wing flaps were
designed to flex under aerodynamic load. In my opinion this is not in compliance with Article 3.15 of
the Formula One Technical Regulations. Therefore I am referring this matter to the stewards for their
consideration.

While yesterday the stewards specifically stated Merc did not design or intend to violate the rules.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... _-_drs.pdf

Further, the FIA has examined the design of the area
of the car in question and are satisfied that the design meets the intent of the
regulation. There is therefore no question in the minds of the Stewards that the test
failure indicates any intent to exceed the maximum dimension either by action or
design.

They cheated there and got caught in 14. Or how would you have me call it?

The wording is very sensitive and sensible by the stewards. Mercedes is a reputable company. A stakeholder in the F1 by billions of dollars since their return. It also shows under what pressure the stewards are even to make such a call.

I am just a fan (not him )and call it as it was. They took a liberty, beyond the border and they knew it. They all know their cars. In fact, even redbull knew this time around.

As dans79 points out, and both the stewards and RBR acknowledged, the portion of the wing 2mm out of spec when subjected to the 10nM test (which is not in the regs, but only in the TD) was clearly damaged. The test was not failed due to design (which would suggest intent).

But following up on the topic of suspicion, I did hear today from a reliable source that Michael Masi is launching a little inquiry as to why RBR have had to replace a portion of their RW in 3 of the last races - all after qualifying. All repairs needing to be requested under parc ferme.

[e30ernest]

What a wonderful drive from Lewis. I had not expected him to win here, particularly after Max passed Bottas at the start. Max drove pretty dirty this race. Can't say I am a fan of how he defended that. That said, he must have been desperate knowing how fast Lewis had been.

I find it absolutely hilarious that people are citing Lewis' out-of-spec wing and his subsequent DQ'd as either an attempt to cheat or as a factor in his overall pace. The part was out-of-spec/faulty. The FIA even says as much. 0.2mm deviance on one side only of the wing does not show intent to cheat at all. The DQ is fair though because they did fail the test. Nothing wrong with that.

I was sure Max' defense there would have resulted to a penalty. I am really looking forward to seeing the onboard for that. Maybe Jolyon will show it in his analysis.

[ringo]

Mercedes had been proven to fail the test. They were DSQed. So you don’t have to be afraid, they actually were cheating with their DRS. I don’t buy the fresh engine story no.

If you have this much advantage with a fresh engine, you can start dead last in a sprint race and P10 in any main race (even without a tire advantage) and still win dominantly. So then race 23 engines. Or 12 if you don’t want to be greedy.

There was a nice bit of info in this thread about the engine. one was ordered specifically to last only 4 race distances, which allows the engine to be run a lot harder as it only needs to cover very small mileage.

Imagine what these f1 engine could do if they were only expected to last a single race, i would argue that, at tracks like silverstone, spa, monza, brazil etc etc and end penalty with view of having that engine last just one race would be enough to give most of the cars a winning package.

If that is true, why not do it? Every race. First 3 races you win. 4th race you get 10 spots, Lewis still easily won from 10 today. You win or are at least thereabouts. Then race 5 onwards you get just 5 spots penalty. Should/could be winning most. You don’t even need to go this far if the engine can make it 4 races as per the apparent ordered engine capabilities. You would just need 23/4 is 6 engines. Lewis is on 5 anyway. Would have blasted the season. I would do that next year then.

I have my suspicions that the performance difference is found elsewhere. And that is just my suspicion, I did not call that cheating, what I called cheating was failing to comply the maximum DRS opening. That document does not talk about any measured values, just a ball being pulled with 10kn of pulling force.

Yes it's called the driver.

[e30ernest]

If that is true, why not do it? Every race. First 3 races you win. 4th race you get 10 spots, Lewis still easily won from 10 today. You win or are at least thereabouts. Then race 5 onwards you get just 5 spots penalty. Should/could be winning most. You don’t even need to go this far if the engine can make it 4 races as per the apparent ordered engine capabilities. You would just need 23/4 is 6 engines. Lewis is on 5 anyway. Would have blasted the season. I would do that next year then.

There's this new thing called a cost cap....

[Fulcrum]

Complete domination from Hamilton this weekend.

If he replicates that kind of dominance in the last few races he will be untouchable, barring mishaps or reliability.

I don't think the final races will be that straight forward though. Whenever F1 have visited new circuits there has been a higher frequency of incident.

Qatar may be relatively processional, but Saudi Arabia could be another Baku IMO.

I think the title fight will be live heading into Abu Dhabi, winner takes all.

[jumpingfish]

Bottas tested his engines and maps before to give Mercedes information about how hard can they push. Were there anomalies between him and another cars?

[KeiKo403]

In hindsight I’m glad the FIA disqualified Hamilton now. They have a rule book and they blindly followed, they didn’t say ‘but it’s Hamilton…’ or ‘think of the championship…’ or ‘it was broken so…’

It seemed harsh at first but I do understand that, for whatever reason, they failed a test and got disqualified. Some posts on there are already a little hard to read with accusations of cheating because a broken part moved 0.2mm more than allowed because a force (would it be an upward force too as the testing apparatus is spherical?) was being applied and the like.

Im just glad Hamilton had to come from last (well 10th on his way from 5th on his was from last) to get the win. If FIA said no further action, takes the 5 place engine change penalty and wins the race anyway I can’t even begin to imagine some of the stuff I’d be reading on here then!

Now we just need the FIA to be consistently strict in the application of all their rules.

[e30ernest]

In hindsight I’m glad the FIA disqualified Hamilton now. They have a rule book and they blindly followed, they didn’t say ‘but it’s Hamilton…’ or ‘think of the championship…’ or ‘it was broken so…’

It seemed harsh at first but I do understand that, for whatever reason, they failed a test and got disqualified. Some posts on there are already a little hard to read with accusations of cheating because a broken part moved 0.2mm more than allowed because a force (would it be an upward force too as the testing apparatus is spherical?) was being applied and the like.

Im just glad Hamilton had to come from last (well 10th on his way from 5th on his was from last) to get the win. If FIA said no further action, takes the 5 place engine change penalty and wins the race anyway I can’t even begin to imagine some of the stuff I’d be reading on here then!

Now we just need the FIA to be consistently strict in the application of all their rules.

I agree with you completely. DQ'ing Lewis was fair IMO and was the correct call.

[mzivtins]

In hindsight I’m glad the FIA disqualified Hamilton now. They have a rule book and they blindly followed, they didn’t say ‘but it’s Hamilton…’ or ‘think of the championship…’ or ‘it was broken so…’

But the rules say if something is broken you are allowed to rectify, how are people not understanding this?

Im pretty sure a rear wing is out of spec if it crumpled into a barrier. illegal, dsq under your take then?

Mercedes should not have been dsq for something that failed a test due to being broken.

[KeiKo403]

In hindsight I’m glad the FIA disqualified Hamilton now. They have a rule book and they blindly followed, they didn’t say ‘but it’s Hamilton…’ or ‘think of the championship…’ or ‘it was broken so…’

But the rules say if something is broken you are allowed to rectify, how are people not understanding this?

Im pretty sure a rear wing is out of spec if it crumpled into a barrier. illegal, dsq under your take then?

Mercedes should not have been dsq for something that failed a test due to being broken.

I get you, I really do. I’m just saying that now there is a precedent that if anything fails to comply with technical regs due to broken parts then in future we know what to expect.

On another couple of notes…
1. Good that Mercedes swapped Hamilton and Bottas when they did, I suspect they were fully expecting the safety car for the T1 debris.

2. Hamilton and Verstappen had their lap times deleted after the stewards look at the T4 incident.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... rn%204.pdf

Offence
Breach of Appendix L, Ch IV, Article 2c and 12.2.1 i of the FIA International Sporting Code, failure to follow the Race Director’s Event Notes 21.

Decision
Deletion of the lap time shown in accordance with Article 12.2.1 i of the FIA International Sporting Code.

Reason
The Stewards received timing information and reports from the Race Director.

So the stewards not only ‘Noted’ the incident but the also actually had to look at footage and still didn’t cast a wider eye over the whole was Hamilton forced off track.