2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

[ringo]

all these merc fans who want Max to be penalise are being hypocrites lewis had a history running oponents offtrack and getting away with it eg Albon in Austria .they know in a far fight he lose against Max only grotesgue straight line speed and downright taking Max off racetrack like in silverstone will win him champ

No it doesnt work like that.
Hamilton does something differenr and within the rules. He always ensures his trajectory is not blocking a driver, or is on a collision course. Huge difference.
He squeezes in parallel in plain view of the following car who is always behind him and has a choice to slow down and stay on the same line.
That is racing.
What Max does it intercept competitors line on a collision course. His line and the line of the cat that already pass him dont even meet tangentially and most importantly its a sudden move that requires some kind of bail out off the track. Huge difference as i said earlier.
Lewis squeezes its progressive and not argy bargy and the follower can still stay on the track with a relatively calm reaction. Also he does this before braking zone or after on acceleration while still not side by side.
There is no jumping out of the way because a crash will happen. And you post example videos here and i will show you.

[Wouter]

Mercedes are completely correct to push this further now the footage is available, though. It doesn't seem there was any intention of making the corner.

Exactly, just imagine if there was a barrier on the edge of the curb, both cars would have smashed in to the barrier. Now if there really was a barrier there, no way does max make that defensive attemp. Therefore he chose to do what he did, he intended to run Lewis off that wide, he chose to do it. It wasnt a mistake.

I assume you know Ho Pin Tung, a racing driver and F1 analyst, who always gives his unbiased analysis after every race on everything that happened in the race.

9:48 a.m. Nov 17 2021 Ho-Pin Tung

What VER thought was only he knows, so let's not speculate and limit it to facts. I always say: motorsport is physics.
Tire has max grip potential, which you can use in longitudinal direction (braking/acceleration), rotation (steering) or combination thereof ("combined G").

"Ask" too much grip from the tire, then you will block or you will have slip. Both brake here later than usual, have to slow down more to reach the bend. VER brakes later and on the inside line has to make a tighter radius, so slow down even more than HAM. Knowing max potential tire, braking straight ahead is most effective for slowing down ASAP.

That explains why VER sends in relatively little, because at that moment it needs all (more than usual) band potential to slow down. Only when the braking phase is largely over, can it use more potential to rotate, and then also sends a large angle but is already on the edge of the track.

Had he sent in earlier (and more), then blocked LF or lost control, and probably hit HAM in both cases.
That's some speculation I want to do and just give extra info so everyone can make up their own mind.

[ringo]

A thought occurred to me, why don’t the drivers and FIA have a pre race debrief, and agree which areas / corners you can and cannot run someone off road? And keep it simple; you cannot go beyond the white lines with a competing racer alongside you. And you have to give racing room within the boundaries of the track if the outside driver was ahead of you before the apex.

For example, if they did this in Austria, everyone agree you cannot run a racer outside the track at turns 4 or 6 where the gravel is, because it significantly impedes their drive and is devoid of sportsmanship / fair racing.

This in my opinion should’ve applied in Imola as well, outside turn 2; those bumps significantly impedes another drivers drive, even causing damage.

If the drivers know where they can and can’t do things, it’s black and white and easier to keep consistent.

The rules are fine as it is. There is no need to create rules to faciliate foolish driving.

[AeroDynamic]

Crazy thing about the fans of this sport, when a championship or victory is decided by a penalty, they think that means the stewards are to blame and a catch all the flack. I mean, yeah, sometimes that’s warranted; when they get it wrong. But if you should be disappointed or mad at anyone, it should be the driver for not making enough effort -if any- in keeping it within the rules. They are the one that ruins the spectacle. Should be mad at them, not the stewards.

[AeroDynamic]

A thought occurred to me, why don’t the drivers and FIA have a pre race debrief, and agree which areas / corners you can and cannot run someone off road? And keep it simple; you cannot go beyond the white lines with a competing racer alongside you. And you have to give racing room within the boundaries of the track if the outside driver was ahead of you before the apex.

For example, if they did this in Austria, everyone agree you cannot run a racer outside the track at turns 4 or 6 where the gravel is, because it significantly impedes their drive and is devoid of sportsmanship / fair racing.

This in my opinion should’ve applied in Imola as well, outside turn 2; those bumps significantly impedes another drivers drive, even causing damage.

If the drivers know where they can and can’t do things, it’s black and white and easier to keep consistent.

The rules are fine as it is. There is no need to create rules to faciliate foolish driving.

But in practice the stewarding is not good enough. My point is that those debriefs would enforce the rules better and hold drivers accountable: open and shut decisions. Less wiggle room for preposterous, so called ‘grey areas’

[ringo]

Why im skeptical about debriefs is that same debreif was used to jusitfy "let them race"

[NathanOlder]

Mercedes are completely correct to push this further now the footage is available, though. It doesn't seem there was any intention of making the corner.

Exactly, just imagine if there was a barrier on the edge of the curb, both cars would have smashed in to the barrier. Now if there really was a barrier there, no way does max make that defensive attemp. Therefore he chose to do what he did, he intended to run Lewis off that wide, he chose to do it. It wasnt a mistake.

I assume you know Ho Pin Tung, a racing driver and F1 analyst, who always gives his unbiased analysis after every race on everything that happened in the race.

9:48 a.m. Nov 17 2021 Ho-Pin Tung

What VER thought was only he knows, so let's not speculate and limit it to facts. I always say: motorsport is physics.
Tire has max grip potential, which you can use in longitudinal direction (braking/acceleration), rotation (steering) or combination thereof ("combined G").

"Ask" too much grip from the tire, then you will block or you will have slip. Both brake here later than usual, have to slow down more to reach the bend. VER brakes later and on the inside line has to make a tighter radius, so slow down even more than HAM. Knowing max potential tire, braking straight ahead is most effective for slowing down ASAP.

That explains why VER sends in relatively little, because at that moment it needs all (more than usual) band potential to slow down. Only when the braking phase is largely over, can it use more potential to rotate, and then also sends a large angle but is already on the edge of the track.

Had he sent in earlier (and more), then blocked LF or lost control, and probably hit HAM in both cases.
That's some speculation I want to do and just give extra info so everyone can make up their own mind.

I assume you know Max only did this because he knew there was 30m of run off to use. Correct ? Or did he just plain screw up and make a big mistake ? Missing a corner by 10m is a HUGE mistake

[Stu]

Just one wish, but I don't think it would happen. A return to the old layout. How cool would that have been.

Fast oval flat out 40 seconds. And then the infield..

Looks epic!!
Multiple layout options too.

[Wouter]

I assume you know Ho Pin Tung, a racing driver and F1 analyst, who always gives his unbiased analysis after every race on everything that happened in the race.

That's some speculation I want to do and just give extra info so everyone can make up their own mind.

I assume you know Max only did this because he knew there was 30m of run off to use. Correct ?
Or did he just plain screw up and make a big mistake ? Missing a corner by 10m is a HUGE mistake

The reason I have posted his analysis here is because he is always unbiased, unlike those here who know exactly what Max is thinking, what Max has done wrong, etc
Did you read his analysis?

[siskue2005]

Mercedes are completely correct to push this further now the footage is available, though. It doesn't seem there was any intention of making the corner.

Exactly, just imagine if there was a barrier on the edge of the curb, both cars would have smashed in to the barrier. Now if there really was a barrier there, no way does max make that defensive attemp. Therefore he chose to do what he did, he intended to run Lewis off that wide, he chose to do it. It wasnt a mistake.

I assume you know Ho Pin Tung, a racing driver and F1 analyst, who always gives his unbiased analysis after every race on everything that happened in the race.

9:48 a.m. Nov 17 2021 Ho-Pin Tung

What VER thought was only he knows, so let's not speculate and limit it to facts. I always say: motorsport is physics.
Tire has max grip potential, which you can use in longitudinal direction (braking/acceleration), rotation (steering) or combination thereof ("combined G").

"Ask" too much grip from the tire, then you will block or you will have slip. Both brake here later than usual, have to slow down more to reach the bend. VER brakes later and on the inside line has to make a tighter radius, so slow down even more than HAM. Knowing max potential tire, braking straight ahead is most effective for slowing down ASAP.

That explains why VER sends in relatively little, because at that moment it needs all (more than usual) band potential to slow down. Only when the braking phase is largely over, can it use more potential to rotate, and then also sends a large angle but is already on the edge of the track.

Had he sent in earlier (and more), then blocked LF or lost control, and probably hit HAM in both cases.
That's some speculation I want to do and just give extra info so everyone can make up their own mind.

[El Scorchio]

Exactly, just imagine if there was a barrier on the edge of the curb, both cars would have smashed in to the barrier. Now if there really was a barrier there, no way does max make that defensive attemp. Therefore he chose to do what he did, he intended to run Lewis off that wide, he chose to do it. It wasnt a mistake.

I assume you know Ho Pin Tung, a racing driver and F1 analyst, who always gives his unbiased analysis after every race on everything that happened in the race.

9:48 a.m. Nov 17 2021 Ho-Pin Tung

What VER thought was only he knows, so let's not speculate and limit it to facts. I always say: motorsport is physics.
Tire has max grip potential, which you can use in longitudinal direction (braking/acceleration), rotation (steering) or combination thereof ("combined G").

"Ask" too much grip from the tire, then you will block or you will have slip. Both brake here later than usual, have to slow down more to reach the bend. VER brakes later and on the inside line has to make a tighter radius, so slow down even more than HAM. Knowing max potential tire, braking straight ahead is most effective for slowing down ASAP.

That explains why VER sends in relatively little, because at that moment it needs all (more than usual) band potential to slow down. Only when the braking phase is largely over, can it use more potential to rotate, and then also sends a large angle but is already on the edge of the track.

Had he sent in earlier (and more), then blocked LF or lost control, and probably hit HAM in both cases.
That's some speculation I want to do and just give extra info so everyone can make up their own mind.

I assume you know Max only did this because he knew there was 30m of run off to use. Correct ? Or did he just plain screw up and make a big mistake ? Missing a corner by 10m is a HUGE mistake

Agree. There's no way he makes such a huge 'error of judgement' in a corner like that on 8 lap old tyres. Otherwise it's a huge example of totally cracking under pressure.

It's worth mentioning that Ho Pin Tung is Dutch, as well.

[AeroDynamic]

[quote=ringo post_id=1012264 time=1637156156 user_id=8060]
Why im skeptical about debriefs is that same debreif was used to jusitfy "let them race"
[/quote]

Yeah because f1 let the super star rugrat get his way in affect, sponsoring his brand of racing. FIA sponsored.

But seriously, if you go back, it all went awry after Charlie passed and massi took over, no back bone.

We had one fair racer in Seb, who in once incident -a genuine case of mishap by stewards in Montreal- had his case hijacked by the lesser racers for their own cause; abandon steward intervention and tear up the rule book for ‘let them race’ which became ‘let them race without the rules’ because a couple of drivers lacking sportsmanship or competence, can’t cope to do the racing on track, within the confines of the rules that are there to keep races classy and within the confines of a real fair battle, with the fidelity of sportsmanship intact.

This, is F1.


https://youtu.be/ogTx_7a9A90

No where do you see a driver intentionally using his car to take you out of the track, both racers allowing for best man, best pace, best skill to win. A genuine concerted effort by racers abiding by the rules to stay on track and respect eachother in their battle. And we can still enjoy this, we had it in Austria. That’s a spectacle.

When you get lesser racers not allowing this to go on for multiple laps or corners, it isn’t racing and it’s lame. Let them race should mean, driver to driver, let eachother race!:

Only clowns celebrate this nonsense after a couple of corners, a ruined race spectacle.

https://static.independent.co.uk/2021/0 ... :726,smart

[Wouter]

It's worth mentioning that Ho Pin Tung is Dutch, as well.

So every Dutchman is biased and pro Max?

[AeroDynamic]

It's worth mentioning that Ho Pin Tung is Dutch, as well.

So every Dutchman is biased and pro Max?

No, but can afford to appreciate why one is tempted to generalise through the prism of their experience. “British bias” has been used to manipulate otherwise impartial British followers to be biased towards max more

[El Scorchio]

It's worth mentioning that Ho Pin Tung is Dutch, as well.

So every Dutchman is biased and pro Max?

In so much as every British person is accused of being biased and pro Hamilton.