2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[Magicsenna_41]

The 0.4sec are in comparison to Verstappens previous fast lap and what we see on the dashboard.
So he was at that point maybe 0.2s clear to Hamilton.

That’s not what he said.

Doesn't really matter what he said. Dash showed he was 0.4s up on his previous lap, this means around 2 tenths ahead of hamilton at that point, but 0.4s is a bit misleading because he was braking too late into final corner. He was 0.35s ahead before braking zone which is a better reference.

Thanks for backin up with facts.

[Gillian]

Who said take it easy? I said it’s about knowing when you don’t need to keep pushing like mad. Wanna know when that is? When you’ve got time in your pocket with 1 corner to go.

I agree with that, truly do. But you misunderstand the sequence of events.

What happened is Verstappen locked a front tire and with that, all advantage he had was gone. You can check the live timings if you don't believe it.

The mistake Verstappen made came after that. He went on the throttle too early. If he had not done that, he would not have hit the wall. But he would not have had pole either. That's a mistake I think any driver fighting for a WDC would have made.

The logic you are applying is he should have taken the entire last corner easier. That implies he tried to gain more time in that last corner. If that's the case, I agree with you.

It's however not. Check back his qualifying laps and you will see he did not do anything weird in the last corner. If anything, he braked similar to his former lap which means he already wasn't as "on edge" as he had been the entire lap.

If you check the footage and still don't agree that's fine. I will shut up now.

The mistake is locking the front tyre, no?

No, the mistake was trying to go for pole after locking up.

The narative being created is "he had a big margin and should have bagged pole. With more experience he would have done that." But that is factually incorrect. The margin he had was about 2 tenths and he only got those 2 tenths by driving a balls to wall high risk lap. He then locked up when braking pretty normally... At that point pole was lost and he should have bailed (imo). He choose to try and get pole still. That decision has imo nothing to do with experience.

[Gillian]

Who said take it easy? I said it’s about knowing when you don’t need to keep pushing like mad. Wanna know when that is? When you’ve got time in your pocket with 1 corner to go.

I agree with that, truly do. But you misunderstand the sequence of events.

What happened is Verstappen locked a front tire and with that, all advantage he had was gone. You can check the live timings if you don't believe it.

The mistake Verstappen made came after that. He went on the throttle too early. If he had not done that, he would not have hit the wall. But he would not have had pole either. That's a mistake I think any driver fighting for a WDC would have made.

The logic you are applying is he should have taken the entire last corner easier. That implies he tried to gain more time in that last corner. If that's the case, I agree with you.

It's however not. Check back his qualifying laps and you will see he did not do anything weird in the last corner. If anything, he braked similar to his former lap which means he already wasn't as "on edge" as he had been the entire lap.

If you check the footage and still don't agree that's fine. I will shut up now.

He was 10kph faster than his previous into the final corner. He may have braked a touch earlier, but it wasn’t by a sufficient amount to account for the overspeed.

Where do you get that 10kph from?

[Pany]

I agree with that, truly do. But you misunderstand the sequence of events.

What happened is Verstappen locked a front tire and with that, all advantage he had was gone. You can check the live timings if you don't believe it.

The mistake Verstappen made came after that. He went on the throttle too early. If he had not done that, he would not have hit the wall. But he would not have had pole either. That's a mistake I think any driver fighting for a WDC would have made.

The logic you are applying is he should have taken the entire last corner easier. That implies he tried to gain more time in that last corner. If that's the case, I agree with you.

It's however not. Check back his qualifying laps and you will see he did not do anything weird in the last corner. If anything, he braked similar to his former lap which means he already wasn't as "on edge" as he had been the entire lap.

If you check the footage and still don't agree that's fine. I will shut up now.

The mistake is locking the front tyre, no?

No, the mistake was trying to go for pole after locking up.

The narative being created is "he had a big margin and should have bagged pole. With more experience he would have done that." But that is factually incorrect. The margin he had was about 2 tenths and he only got those 2 tenths by driving a balls to wall high risk lap. He then locked up when braking pretty normally... At that point pole was lost and he should have bailed (imo). He choose to try and get pole still. That decision has imo nothing to do with experience.

I can not agree. You are talking of things happening in microseconds. Is a matter of talent and instinct, he did not decide nothing during that moments. He just decided for the whole lap to take some risks. Thats it. All in, you get everythingin spectscular way or nothing. He had nothing to loose, since without risk he can very hardly win quali and race. That is racing

[El Scorchio]

I agree with that, truly do. But you misunderstand the sequence of events.

What happened is Verstappen locked a front tire and with that, all advantage he had was gone. You can check the live timings if you don't believe it.

The mistake Verstappen made came after that. He went on the throttle too early. If he had not done that, he would not have hit the wall. But he would not have had pole either. That's a mistake I think any driver fighting for a WDC would have made.

The logic you are applying is he should have taken the entire last corner easier. That implies he tried to gain more time in that last corner. If that's the case, I agree with you.

It's however not. Check back his qualifying laps and you will see he did not do anything weird in the last corner. If anything, he braked similar to his former lap which means he already wasn't as "on edge" as he had been the entire lap.

If you check the footage and still don't agree that's fine. I will shut up now.

The mistake is locking the front tyre, no?

No, the mistake was trying to go for pole after locking up.

The narative being created is "he had a big margin and should have bagged pole. With more experience he would have done that." But that is factually incorrect. The margin he had was about 2 tenths and he only got those 2 tenths by driving a balls to wall high risk lap. He then locked up when braking pretty normally... At that point pole was lost and he should have bailed (imo). He choose to try and get pole still. That decision has imo nothing to do with experience.

But locking a wheel IS a mistake. The mistake which took the lap away from him and led to the rest of the sequence of events. The subsequent mistake of not bailing the lap compounded that first one. If he hadn’t locked the wheel the second situation wouldn’t have presented itself.

[214270]

I agree with that, truly do. But you misunderstand the sequence of events.

What happened is Verstappen locked a front tire and with that, all advantage he had was gone. You can check the live timings if you don't believe it.

The mistake Verstappen made came after that. He went on the throttle too early. If he had not done that, he would not have hit the wall. But he would not have had pole either. That's a mistake I think any driver fighting for a WDC would have made.

The logic you are applying is he should have taken the entire last corner easier. That implies he tried to gain more time in that last corner. If that's the case, I agree with you.

It's however not. Check back his qualifying laps and you will see he did not do anything weird in the last corner. If anything, he braked similar to his former lap which means he already wasn't as "on edge" as he had been the entire lap.

If you check the footage and still don't agree that's fine. I will shut up now.

He was 10kph faster than his previous into the final corner. He may have braked a touch earlier, but it wasn’t by a sufficient amount to account for the overspeed.

Where do you get that 10kph from?

Telemetry

[nimoraca]

The 0.4sec are in comparison to Verstappens previous fast lap and what we see on the dashboard.
So he was at that point maybe 0.2s clear to Hamilton.

That’s not what he said.

Doesn't really matter what he said. Dash showed he was 0.4s up on his previous lap, this means around 2 tenths ahead of hamilton at that point, but 0.4s is a bit misleading because he was braking too late into final corner. He was 0.35s ahead before braking zone which is a better reference.

How dare you show evidence and use reason on this forum .

[Gillian]

The mistake is locking the front tyre, no?

No, the mistake was trying to go for pole after locking up.

The narative being created is "he had a big margin and should have bagged pole. With more experience he would have done that." But that is factually incorrect. The margin he had was about 2 tenths and he only got those 2 tenths by driving a balls to wall high risk lap. He then locked up when braking pretty normally... At that point pole was lost and he should have bailed (imo). He choose to try and get pole still. That decision has imo nothing to do with experience.

But locking a wheel IS a mistake. The mistake which took the lap away from him and led to the rest of the sequence of events. The subsequent mistake of not bailing the lap compounded that first one. If he hadn’t locked the wheel the second situation wouldn’t have presented itself.

Ofcourse it's a mistake, I don't claim it's not? I agree with everything you say. I don't agree it's a matter of experience. But let's stop now. I think we actually agree but I am only of the opinion it's not about experience.

[Restomaniac]

That’s not what he said.

Doesn't really matter what he said. Dash showed he was 0.4s up on his previous lap, this means around 2 tenths ahead of hamilton at that point, but 0.4s is a bit misleading because he was braking too late into final corner. He was 0.35s ahead before braking zone which is a better reference.

How dare you show evidence and use reason on this forum .

So he had 2.5 in his pocket then. Yeah he still gets pole if he doesn’t push into the last corner.

[Wouter]

Apparently not... Posted by Wouter in the RB team thread:

Verstappen gearbox does not need to be replaced

Gearbox tested

A source in the Austrian team told GPToday.net: "We have examined and looked at the car's performance after qualifying tonight. Max's car was tested with the gearbox just before midnight [local time] and it appears to be OK."

It can be concluded from this that Verstappen will simply start third, behind Lewis Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas who are together on the front row.

I don't trust an unknown source at all! The risk of dnf is to high. If I had to place a bet,

I'd say it's a ploy to prevent Merc from changing Bottas's engine!

.
It is not an unknown source to me!
Like you, I only post facts here if I'm 100% sure they are 100% correct!

If GPToday says they have it from a reliable source, data on an RBR gearbox, then it comes directly from the circuit
from Helmut Marko or Jos Verstappen. In this case it came from Jos Verstappen and a few hours ago Helmut Marko announced it to the assembled press.

And: "I'd say it's a ploy to prevent Merc from changing Bottas's engine!"

[Restomaniac]

No, the mistake was trying to go for pole after locking up.

The narative being created is "he had a big margin and should have bagged pole. With more experience he would have done that." But that is factually incorrect. The margin he had was about 2 tenths and he only got those 2 tenths by driving a balls to wall high risk lap. He then locked up when braking pretty normally... At that point pole was lost and he should have bailed (imo). He choose to try and get pole still. That decision has imo nothing to do with experience.

But locking a wheel IS a mistake. The mistake which took the lap away from him and led to the rest of the sequence of events. The subsequent mistake of not bailing the lap compounded that first one. If he hadn’t locked the wheel the second situation wouldn’t have presented itself.

Ofcourse it's a mistake, I don't claim it's not? I agree with everything you say. I don't agree it's a matter of experience. But let's stop now. I think we actually agree but I am only of the opinion it's not about experience.

Of course it is. Somebody has told you that he had overspeed into the last corner when he didn’t need too. An older head knows when the job is already done.

I think I can safely say he’ll learn and not do it again. That’s experience for you.

[PlatinumZealot]

Everybody makes big mistakes time to time. This one just happened in the final rounds when things matter the most. Not sure if it will make a difference until we see how the race goes. RedBull is on mediums?

[JordanMugen]

The margin he had was about 2 tenths and he only got those 2 tenths by driving a balls to wall high risk lap.

That is the whole point of motor racing, after all, is it not? Be it here in Jeddah, at Monte Carlo, or at Bathurst, Mount Panorama or so on?

A technical exercise of slow-in, fast-out at Paul Ricard circuit with little risk when getting it wrong is hardly as thrilling for drivers or fans!

[El Scorchio]

Apparently not... Posted by Wouter in the RB team thread:

I don't trust an unknown source at all! The risk of dnf is to high. If I had to place a bet,

I'd say it's a ploy to prevent Merc from changing Bottas's engine!

.
It is not an unknown source to me!
Like you, I only post facts here if I'm 100% sure they are 100% correct!

If GPToday says they have it from a reliable source, data on an RBR gearbox, then it comes directly from the circuit
from Helmut Marko or Jos Verstappen. In this case it came from Jos Verstappen and a few hours ago Helmut Marko announced it to the assembled press.

And: "I'd say it's a ploy to prevent Merc from changing Bottas's engine!"

Then again, yesterday planetf1 were running two news stories next to each other and they are still there. The first headline was:

Marko says Red Bull will appeal Hamilton verdicts

And the other was:

FIA confirm no Red Bull appeal of Hamilton decisions

So it can be somewhat muddy to find the correct situation even if a quoted source is supposed to be someone in the know but turns out to be untrue.

[dans79]

Apparently not... Posted by Wouter in the RB team thread:

I don't trust an unknown source at all! The risk of dnf is to high. If I had to place a bet,

I'd say it's a ploy to prevent Merc from changing Bottas's engine!

.
It is not an unknown source to me!
Like you, I only post facts here if I'm 100% sure they are 100% correct!

If GPToday says they have it from a reliable source, data on an RBR gearbox, then it comes directly from the circuit
from Helmut Marko or Jos Verstappen. In this case it came from Jos Verstappen and a few hours ago Helmut Marko announced it to the assembled press.

And: "I'd say it's a ploy to prevent Merc from changing Bottas's engine!"

What part of "I" don't you understand?