2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[El Scorchio]

No, the mistake was trying to go for pole after locking up.

The narative being created is "he had a big margin and should have bagged pole. With more experience he would have done that." But that is factually incorrect. The margin he had was about 2 tenths and he only got those 2 tenths by driving a balls to wall high risk lap. He then locked up when braking pretty normally... At that point pole was lost and he should have bailed (imo). He choose to try and get pole still. That decision has imo nothing to do with experience.

But locking a wheel IS a mistake. The mistake which took the lap away from him and led to the rest of the sequence of events. The subsequent mistake of not bailing the lap compounded that first one. If he hadn’t locked the wheel the second situation wouldn’t have presented itself.

Ofcourse it's a mistake, I don't claim it's not? I agree with everything you say. I don't agree it's a matter of experience. But let's stop now. I think we actually agree but I am only of the opinion it's not about experience.

I think you did when I asked if locking a wheel is a mistake and you said ‘no’.

Whether experience played a part is something to agree to disagree on. You were mainly arguing that point with someone else. As I said, I’m more inclined to think it’s an age thing more than an experience thing.

[dans79]

But locking a wheel IS a mistake. The mistake which took the lap away from him and led to the rest of the sequence of events. The subsequent mistake of not bailing the lap compounded that first one. If he hadn’t locked the wheel the second situation wouldn’t have presented itself.

Ofcourse it's a mistake, I don't claim it's not? I agree with everything you say. I don't agree it's a matter of experience. But let's stop now. I think we actually agree but I am only of the opinion it's not about experience.

I think you did when I asked if locking a wheel is a mistake and you said ‘no’.

Whether experience played a part is something to agree to disagree on. You were mainly arguing that point with someone else. As I said, I’m more inclined to think it’s an age thing more than an experience thing.

Personally, I don't think it's age, or experience, I think it's personality. All he knows is attack, And that is a detriment at times!

[PlatinumZealot]

I agree with that, truly do. But you misunderstand the sequence of events.

What happened is Verstappen locked a front tire and with that, all advantage he had was gone. You can check the live timings if you don't believe it.

The mistake Verstappen made came after that. He went on the throttle too early. If he had not done that, he would not have hit the wall. But he would not have had pole either. That's a mistake I think any driver fighting for a WDC would have made.

The logic you are applying is he should have taken the entire last corner easier. That implies he tried to gain more time in that last corner. If that's the case, I agree with you.

It's however not. Check back his qualifying laps and you will see he did not do anything weird in the last corner. If anything, he braked similar to his former lap which means he already wasn't as "on edge" as he had been the entire lap.

If you check the footage and still don't agree that's fine. I will shut up now.

The mistake is locking the front tyre, no?

No, the mistake was trying to go for pole after locking up.

The narative being created is "he had a big margin and should have bagged pole. With more experience he would have done that." But that is factually incorrect. The margin he had was about 2 tenths and he only got those 2 tenths by driving a balls to wall high risk lap. He then locked up when braking pretty normally... At that point pole was lost and he should have bailed (imo). He choose to try and get pole still. That decision has imo nothing to do with experience.

If locking up is not a mistake, then do you let Bottas off the hook in Hungary? And Do you let Lewis off the hook in Imola? Come on man, let's be fair it is human to make mistakes, actually it is part of this sport that mistakes will be made or else everyone would have perfect laps all the time.

[El Scorchio]

Ofcourse it's a mistake, I don't claim it's not? I agree with everything you say. I don't agree it's a matter of experience. But let's stop now. I think we actually agree but I am only of the opinion it's not about experience.

I think you did when I asked if locking a wheel is a mistake and you said ‘no’.

Whether experience played a part is something to agree to disagree on. You were mainly arguing that point with someone else. As I said, I’m more inclined to think it’s an age thing more than an experience thing.

Personally, I don't think it's age, or experience, I think it's personality. All he knows is attack, And that is a detriment at times!

Yeah good point, but I might argue that personality could change based on age and experience. I’m definitely not the same person I was 10 years ago!

[dans79]

.
It is not an unknown source to me!
Like you, I only post facts here if I'm 100% sure they are 100% correct!

If GPToday says they have it from a reliable source, data on an RBR gearbox, then it comes directly from the circuit
from Helmut Marko or Jos Verstappen. In this case it came from Jos Verstappen and a few hours ago Helmut Marko announced it to the assembled press.

And: "I'd say it's a ploy to prevent Merc from changing Bottas's engine!"

What part of "I" don't you understand?

The self-created conspiracy talk part.

There is a difference between understand, and like! I have no problem explaining something if someone doesn't understand it, but if someone doesn't like it, I can't do anything about that.

[Marty_Y]

Regarding how much Max was ahead, here are some quotes from Max himself.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59535998

The Red Bull driver's steering-wheel dashboard was telling him he was 0.3 seconds up on his previous best lap. Verstappen knew Hamilton had just beaten his time by 0.14secs

"I saw it was a good lap," Verstappen said. "I was 0.3secs faster on my delta and then I thought on the last corner there might be still a bit to gain.

"I knew of course Lewis was 0.1-0.15secs ahead, but I approached it like I always do in qualifying. But somehow I just locked up. And I have to see if I actually braked later or not. From my feeling, I didn't.

"Just really disappointing. It was a really good lap. I was really enjoying it and then not to finish it is extremely disappointing, especially now in this fight you want to start first."

[Gillian]

But locking a wheel IS a mistake. The mistake which took the lap away from him and led to the rest of the sequence of events. The subsequent mistake of not bailing the lap compounded that first one. If he hadn’t locked the wheel the second situation wouldn’t have presented itself.

Ofcourse it's a mistake, I don't claim it's not? I agree with everything you say. I don't agree it's a matter of experience. But let's stop now. I think we actually agree but I am only of the opinion it's not about experience.

I think you did when I asked if locking a wheel is a mistake and you said ‘no’.

Whether experience played a part is something to agree to disagree on. You were mainly arguing that point with someone else. As I said, I’m more inclined to think it’s an age thing more than an experience thing.

Ah I understand. I said "no" on that question because I don't see it as the main mistake. At that point he still could have chosen to bail out. But of course it was a mistake.

[Gillian]

Ofcourse it's a mistake, I don't claim it's not? I agree with everything you say. I don't agree it's a matter of experience. But let's stop now. I think we actually agree but I am only of the opinion it's not about experience.

I think you did when I asked if locking a wheel is a mistake and you said ‘no’.

Whether experience played a part is something to agree to disagree on. You were mainly arguing that point with someone else. As I said, I’m more inclined to think it’s an age thing more than an experience thing.

Personally, I don't think it's age, or experience, I think it's personality. All he knows is attack, And that is a detriment at times!

Well you expressed what I was trying to say in so few words. Thank you.

Imo it's what makes him so great mostly. Just takeaway that attacking attitude of him and we wouldn't even be discussing that lap. He would have just put it on P3 or even worse (look at Perez).

[PlatinumZealot]

Nice telemetry of lewis vs max.

Merc have higher gearing and more drag it seems.
Lewis lifts when Max can go flat - likely down to tyre temps.
RedBull faster in the turns above 200kph.

Basically Mercedes can be in trouble if Max gets into clean air.

[Gillian]

The mistake is locking the front tyre, no?

No, the mistake was trying to go for pole after locking up.

The narative being created is "he had a big margin and should have bagged pole. With more experience he would have done that." But that is factually incorrect. The margin he had was about 2 tenths and he only got those 2 tenths by driving a balls to wall high risk lap. He then locked up when braking pretty normally... At that point pole was lost and he should have bailed (imo). He choose to try and get pole still. That decision has imo nothing to do with experience.

If locking up is not a mistake, then do you let Bottas off the hook in Hungary? And Do you let Lewis off the hook in Imola? Come on man, let's be fair it is human to make mistakes, actually it is part of this sport that mistakes will be made or else everyone would have perfect laps all the time.

I think you are misunderstanding me. Please look at what I responded to El Scorchio.

[jumpingfish]

So everyone is talking about Max, but why doesn't anyone notice how poorly Perez qualified? According to Verstappen, he saw 0.3s on the panel. Suppose he would decide to calmly slow down before the last turn. Let him be not 0.3s but 0.25s ahead of Hamilton at finish line. So Max is on pole and Perez is 0.862s behind. If Sergio could be only 0.2s slower than Max's best lap then he could start today ahead of the two Mercedes, helping his teammate. I suppose 2022 will be his last season for RB, if next year he is just as weak in qualifications and it is forced him to overcome difficulties in races due to poor starting positions (if RB builds a good car).

[214270]

So everyone is talking about Max, but why doesn't anyone notice how poorly Perez qualified? According to Verstappen, he saw 0.3s on the panel. Suppose he would decide to calmly slow down before the last turn. Let him be not 0.3s but 0.25s ahead of Hamilton at finish line. So Max is on pole and Perez is 0.862s behind. If Sergio could be only 0.2s slower than Max's best lap then he could start today ahead of the two Mercedes, helping his teammate. I suppose 2022 will be his last season for RB, if next year he is just as weak in qualifications and it is forced him to overcome difficulties in races due to poor starting positions (if RB builds a good car).

PER aborted his final run, VER was in the wall.

[El Scorchio]

Good god. Just tuned in to see the F2 carnage. This makes me even more nervous about the safety of the drivers for the F1 race.

[El Scorchio]

Ofcourse it's a mistake, I don't claim it's not? I agree with everything you say. I don't agree it's a matter of experience. But let's stop now. I think we actually agree but I am only of the opinion it's not about experience.

I think you did when I asked if locking a wheel is a mistake and you said ‘no’.

Whether experience played a part is something to agree to disagree on. You were mainly arguing that point with someone else. As I said, I’m more inclined to think it’s an age thing more than an experience thing.

Ah I understand. I said "no" on that question because I don't see it as the main mistake. At that point he still could have chosen to bail out. But of course it was a mistake.

Gotcha. Yeah that’s how I see it as well. One initial mistake compounded by another mistake OR a bad decision- however you’d like to frame it.

[jumpingfish]

So everyone is talking about Max, but why doesn't anyone notice how poorly Perez qualified? According to Verstappen, he saw 0.3s on the panel. Suppose he would decide to calmly slow down before the last turn. Let him be not 0.3s but 0.25s ahead of Hamilton at finish line. So Max is on pole and Perez is 0.862s behind. If Sergio could be only 0.2s slower than Max's best lap then he could start today ahead of the two Mercedes, helping his teammate. I suppose 2022 will be his last season for RB, if next year he is just as weak in qualifications and it is forced him to overcome difficulties in races due to poor starting positions (if RB builds a good car).

PER aborted his final run, VER was in the wall.

Did Perez run with a significant improvement before Max's crash? After the first try he was slower by 0.475s and that's a lot.