2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[Jolle]

My biggest gripe in this is that I want to like Max. He’s a sensational driver as his Q3 up until the crash showed. Schumacher was the same for me, but then they do stupid --- like this. Even if they just owned it, that would sit better with me, but Max is just surrounded by insufferable apologists.

This is why people liked guys like Dale Earnhardt. He would do dirty --- and when confronted would be like, “yeah I did that”.

Common it's not even comparable to schumacher. Schumacher atleast did it only once in the heat of the moment... he never was this dirty or this desperately holding on it his position and pushing evey one out of the way...

Max is just another level, it's crazy how much desperation and madness he is doing

Schumacher has been on many close battles he never did any crazy things like this.

Twice (‘94 and ‘97) (plus more then a few shoves and “ohfg I can’t believe he got away with that moments)

[Hoffman900]

Only Max knows if it was intentional or not. Trying to compare it to anything in your own life is inconsequential.

[siskue2005]

My biggest gripe in this is that I want to like Max. He’s a sensational driver as his Q3 up until the crash showed. Schumacher was the same for me, but then they do stupid --- like this. Even if they just owned it, that would sit better with me, but Max is just surrounded by insufferable apologists.

This is why people liked guys like Dale Earnhardt. He would do dirty --- and when confronted would be like, “yeah I did that”.

Common it's not even comparable to schumacher. Schumacher atleast did it only once in the heat of the moment... he never was this dirty or this desperately holding on it his position and pushing evey one out of the way...

Max is just another level, it's crazy how much desperation and madness he is doing

Schumacher has been on many close battles he never did any crazy things like this.

Twice (‘94 and ‘97) (plus more then a few shoves and “ohfg I can’t believe he got away with that moments)

94 was not intentional, It was genuine mistake...it was that mistake which made him to do an intentional one in 97

More than a few shoves, yes that's it... but what is Max doing? Just one race 4 times pushing and doing desperate moves. It just tarnishes his image..

[rb88]

I don't think it is right to suggest that Verstappen braked with the intention to take out Hamilton. He was trying to let Hamilton through, why would he then decide to try and take him out. I agree that he was predominantly at blame for the incident due to the heavy braking, however that does penalty does not say that he attempted to take out another competitor. As much as many people would like to believe the FIA would just pass that off, If a driver did intentionally try to take out another driver, they would take much harder action, regardless of if there is a championship on the line. I think that the FIA believe that many of the errors within this incident (Hamilton not overtaking, Masi telling Merc too late, Max's braking) were mainly down to the confusion around the situation. That is why in the Stewards decision it states that they see Max having 'predominant' blame and mentions the other faults that led to the collision.

If he really wanted to let Ham through, he would've gone way offline, be well clear of the racing line, brake fast, make sure he'd pass him, then quickly slot in again - NORMAL BACKMARKER BEHAVIOR! Instead, he's in the middle of the damn track, and then, as proven, brake-tested his opponent. For me, a 10 second penalty is a sham and he should've been DSQ'd from this race - but that's stewards involving themselves with the outcome of a WDC.. so yeah now we have this. There is no defending Max' behavior, no matter how ANYONE spins it.

[GrizzleBoy]

I can’t understand how being found to have brake checked another car in a Grand Prix is 10 seconds. I fear for the last race now, I want a race worthy of the champions not dive bombing and brake checks.

Unfortunately the only way to get some actual properly good racing at the front of the grid is for Max to not be in a fast car.

Its actually crazy when you think about it, that the person best placed to win the championship for most of the season and for some reason praised as the next F1 Jesus, is literally incapable of actually racing properly on track. In fact, his style completely neutralises the prospect of actual racing happening.

And it has been that was since he joined F1 too. That's the problem. He's been driving like as asshat for yeeeeeeeeeears and everyone from former drivers, to commentators, to his team and management have all been kissing his ass the whole time he's been doing it.

So now we arrive in a season where he is not just being talked about here and there while other drivers duking it out for the championship. HE is winning the championship for most of 2021 and needs to go up against one of the best in the history of the sport basically every race.

But what do we see? Trash. Absolute trash tier racing.

Multi lap, multi corner battles with fair and hard racing like Ham v Alonso in Hungary or Ham v Perez in Russia, or Ham v Perez in brazil?

With the crowd cheering in excitement and appreciation at the spectacle of two racers actually racing each other, back and forth, corner to corner, displaying actual racing skills?

No, if he's overtaking Ham, he's almost crashing into him.

No if he's defending Ham, he's almost crashing into him. Even landing a wheel on Lewis' head at one point.

And it's not here or there, it's literally every, single, time.

You're incapable of properly braking for a turn and remaining on track/not pushing off track when Ham is nearby, every time? Eeeeeeevery time?

Its the kind of thing you expect to see in "shitty F1 2021 online driver" videos on YouTube, not the supposed next best thing in racing who is ready to receive the baton as the best driver on the grid.

[the poster below]

Been trying to look up what the penalty is for brake testing on the road. Some sites suggest up to two years in prison and an unlimited fine if done on a UK road (obviously affected by what happens in the particular scenario). Leaving aside today's incident, it does seem out of step to have a standardised 10s penalty for what is treated more seriously on public roads.

Also found this old article from when Verstappen thought Grosjean brake tested him:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndicatio ... e.amp.html

Quote from the article:

Brake testing is deliberately braking either early or at an unnecessary location in order to cause "problems" for the chasing driver. Such manoeuvres are not accepted in F1 and any driver caught doing it would face a heavy penalty.

Given the speeds involved and the incredible stopping power of an F1 car, he'd also be extremely likely to have a massive crash, especially if he did it at Monaco. Grosjean was very lucky to stay out of the wall—the force of impact would usually have been enough to park him next to Verstappen.

One has to believe no professional driver would risk his own life, that of a rival and those of marshals and spectators to defend any position—even if it was the lead. That Grosjean would risk a massive incident into St. Devote for the sake of 10th is simply unthinkable.

[El Scorchio]

I hope they tighten up the rules around giving a place back in future to say it can’t be done leading up to a DRS detection point. You shouldn’t be able to do it ‘strategically’ and retake the place you wrongfully took in the first place using DRS.

[Jolle]

Common it's not even comparable to schumacher. Schumacher atleast did it only once in the heat of the moment... he never was this dirty or this desperately holding on it his position and pushing evey one out of the way...

Max is just another level, it's crazy how much desperation and madness he is doing

Schumacher has been on many close battles he never did any crazy things like this.

Twice (‘94 and ‘97) (plus more then a few shoves and “ohfg I can’t believe he got away with that moments)

94 was not intentional, It was genuine mistake...it was that mistake which made him to do an intentional one in 97

More than a few shoves, yes that's it... but what is Max doing? Just one race 4 times pushing and doing desperate moves. It just tarnishes his image..

Oh 1994 was also a desperate move, after hitting the wall. But I agree, those cases were in the heat of the moment/red mist/etc. I believe Schumacher even himself reflected on those two occasions like that and felt bad about them in a strange kind of way.
With Verstappen (backed by Marko/Horner) it’s more a strategy.

I also read somewhere the comparison to Sennas antics. Those were quite different in basic I think. Senna felt wronged by the FIA and Prost the year before. He raced hard but owned up to it. Plus that was 30+ years ago. Plus the whole “he let it up to you if you had an accident “ was still on track, not after the overtake and just, well, ran straight off track.

[AngusF1]

The circuit: wow, I wouldn't want to be driving it myself but the onboards feel like a warp tunnel. Very cool and good to see the drivers being challenged.

The 'Stappen: Seems to think that driving off the circuit short-cutting a corner then barging his opponent of the track, and brake-checking, are acceptable motorsport tactics. This shouldn't be tolerated and it's time for a superlicense ban. Preferably for a year so he can go back to Formula 3 in a middling car and learn how to race safely.

[Tvetovnato]

I can’t understand how being found to have brake checked another car in a Grand Prix is 10 seconds. I fear for the last race now, I want a race worthy of the champions not dive bombing and brake checks.

Unfortunately the only way to get some actual properly good racing at the front of the grid is for Max to not be in a fast car.

Its actually crazy when you think about it, that the person best placed to win the championship for most of the season and for some reason praised as the next F1 Jesus, is literally incapable of actually racing properly on track. In fact, his style completely neutralises the prospect of actual racing happening.

And it has been that was since he joined F1 too. That's the problem. He's been driving like as asshat for yeeeeeeeeeears and everyone from former drivers, to commentators, to his team and management have all been kissing his ass the whole time he's been doing it.

So now we arrive in a season where he is not just being talked about here and there while other drivers duking it out for the championship. HE is winning the championship for most of 2021 and needs to go up against one of the best in the history of the sport basically every race.

But what do we see? Trash. Absolute trash tier racing.

Multi lap, multi corner battles with fair and hard racing like Ham v Alonso in Hungary or Ham v Perez in Russia?

No, if he's overtaking Ham, he's almost crashing into him.

No if he's defending Ham, he's almost crashing into him.

And it's not here or there, it's literally every, single, time.

You're incapable of properly braking for a turn and remaining on track/not pushing off track when Ham is nearby, every time? Eeeeeeevery time?

Its the kind of thing you expect to see in "shitty F1 2021 online driver" videos on youtube, not the supposed next best thing in racing who is ready to receive the baton as the best driver on the grid.

Yep, it’s pretty depressing. I saw the first start now, and realized Max was in the exact same position with Bottas there as he was with Lewis on the restart. But he didn’t decide to do the ”drive around the outside as the next corner does not exist” move there. Only with Lewis. It’s terrible for the sport. I wish Alonso was in the Red Bull instead of Max.

[Restomaniac]

I don't think it is right to suggest that Verstappen braked with the intention to take out Hamilton. He was trying to let Hamilton through, why would he then decide to try and take him out. I agree that he was predominantly at blame for the incident due to the heavy braking, however that does penalty does not say that he attempted to take out another competitor. As much as many people would like to believe the FIA would just pass that off, If a driver did intentionally try to take out another driver, they would take much harder action, regardless of if there is a championship on the line. I think that the FIA believe that many of the errors within this incident (Hamilton not overtaking, Masi telling Merc too late, Max's braking) were mainly down to the confusion around the situation. That is why in the Stewards decision it states that they see Max having 'predominant' blame and mentions the other faults that led to the collision.

If they both had a DNF who would have stayed 8 points clear.

[littlebigcat]

It would be interesting to know what penalty Verstappen would have gotten if that was sim racing.

[Bill_Kar]

There is no bottom for FIA, really.

What the heck are they doing? Max (according to them) caused a collision by brake-checking LH and he's handed a convenient 10-sec penalty? After all his shenanigans today??

So, Masi can tell to Mercedes "There, I penalized Verstappen twice, I'm not incompetent" and we're supposed to say OK? And fuel Red Bull's story that they are getting slammed for "fair and tough fighting"??

Jesus.

[GrizzleBoy]

The circuit: wow, I wouldn't want to be driving it myself but the onboards feel like a warp tunnel. Very cool and good to see the drivers being challenged.

The 'Stappen: Seems to think that driving off the circuit short-cutting a corner then barging his opponent of the track, and brake-checking, are acceptable motorsport tactics. This shouldn't be tolerated and it's time for a superlicense ban. Preferably for a year so he can go back to Formula 3 in a middling car and learn how to race safely.

You say that last part as a joke I'm sure, but his race craft genuinely looks like the kind of thing you see in unranked online racing lobbies.

Weaving in braking zones. Divebombing when there's a car on the outside. Turning in when there's a car on the inside. "Questionable" tactics when about to be passed on a straight.

As Martin Brundle seemingly hesitantly stated today, Max or someone around him really needs to address his driving standards, because to be quite frank, they're just complete crap.

[El Scorchio]

I can’t understand how being found to have brake checked another car in a Grand Prix is 10 seconds. I fear for the last race now, I want a race worthy of the champions not dive bombing and brake checks.

Unfortunately the only way to get some actual properly good racing at the front of the grid is for Max to not be in a fast car.

Its actually crazy when you think about it, that the person best placed to win the championship for most of the season and for some reason praised as the next F1 Jesus, is literally incapable of actually racing properly on track. In fact, his style completely neutralises the prospect of actual racing happening.

And it has been that was since he joined F1 too. That's the problem. He's been driving like as asshat for yeeeeeeeeeears and everyone from former drivers, to commentators, to his team and management have all been kissing his ass the whole time he's been doing it.

So now we arrive in a season where he is not just being talked about here and there while other drivers duking it out for the championship. HE is winning the championship for most of 2021 and needs to go up against one of the best in the history of the sport basically every race.

But what do we see? Trash. Absolute trash tier racing.

Multi lap, multi corner battles with fair and hard racing like Ham v Alonso in Hungary or Ham v Perez in Russia?

No, if he's overtaking Ham, he's almost crashing into him.

No if he's defending Ham, he's almost crashing into him.

And it's not here or there, it's literally every, single, time.

You're incapable of properly braking for a turn and remaining on track/not pushing off track when Ham is nearby, every time? Eeeeeeevery time?

Its the kind of thing you expect to see in "shitty F1 2021 online driver" videos on youtube, not the supposed next best thing in racing who is ready to receive the baton as the best driver on the grid.

Yep, it’s pretty depressing. I saw the first start now, and realized Max was in the exact same position with Bottas there as he was with Lewis on the restart. But he didn’t decide to do the ”drive around the outside as the next corner does not exist” move there. Only with Lewis. It’s terrible for the sport. I wish Alonso was in the Red Bull instead of Max.

Yes, I noticed that as well. Perfect etiquette there so we know he’s well capable of it. He’s only behaving in this manner toward one person. It’s deliberate, calculated and targeted. He doesn’t gain anything by hitting Bottas or anyone else so he doesn’t try to do it.

In the full picture of the rest of the race, the third standing start also starts to look a bit dubious.